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Myth #4: Conspiracy theorists believe in UFOs / Aliens / Apollo Moon / Holocaust denial

This is a straw man and an ad hominem fallacy. Not all conspiracy theorists believe in the same things, nor does believing in aliens invalidate their arguments on other theories. The only thing linking these things is that they are all perceived to be conspiracy theories. Each should be evaluated on its own merits.

However, if a theorist bases their beliefs on poor argumentation, then other conspiracy theorists may want to distance themselves from him/her or question that theorist's ability to support their own ideas. Many such people are accused of being deliberately planted to discredit other theories, a technique called the 'poisoned well'. The media then proceeds to discredit an entire investigative movement based on a few silly theories - a strawman attack.

When the media lumps anybody who doesn't trust the government version of 9-11 into the category of flat earthers and holocaust deniers, any real conspiracy there might have been is given the ultimate defense. Namely, a pre-emptive, universal ad hominem on anyone who would dare talk about it publicly, the archetypal 'tin foil hatter'.

Sunday, November 8, 2026

Seven Batches of UFO Files: The Most Fascinating Discoveries, Strange Encounters, and Unanswered Questions

Seven Batches of UFO Files: The Most Fascinating Discoveries, Strange Encounters, and Unanswered Questions

By JM Talboo
UnDebunkingUFOs.blogspot.com

The U.S. government's ongoing release of previously classified UFO and Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) records has given researchers, journalists, and independent investigators a substantial new collection of material to examine.

Since May 2026, seven batches of records have been published through the Department of War's PURSUE disclosure program. The collection now contains approximately 478 indexed records, including historical intelligence reports, military videos, NASA photographs, FBI interviews, audio recordings, and documents from several government agencies. The records span decades of UFO investigations, from the 1940s through 2026.

But what is actually interesting in all this material? Here are some of the highlights that deserve closer examination.

1. The 2023 encounter involving six federal agents and mysterious orbs

One of the more intriguing cases comes from October 2023, when six federal law enforcement agents reportedly encountered unusual aerial phenomena near a sensitive national security facility in the western United States.

The witnesses described large orange orbs apparently releasing smaller red orbs. The reports covered multiple observations over two days.

What's particularly interesting is that this wasn't simply an anonymous internet sighting. The release included individual witness narratives and an official AARO case-analysis memorandum.

The case remains unresolved. That doesn't establish an extraordinary explanation, but multiple firsthand accounts from federal personnel make this one worth examining carefully.

Original case document: DOW-UAP-D077.

2. The black triangular craft reports

Several FBI records released in the fifth batch concern witnesses describing enormous black triangular objects.

The FBI conducted formal interviews and included digital renderings based on witness descriptions. These reports cover multiple sightings between 2002 and 2023.

The seventh batch added another interesting case: a 2026 report involving a triangular object observed near a sensitive western U.S. facility. Federal personnel reportedly described it rising vertically, hovering, and then banking and descending toward a canyon.

AARO considered the case worthy of further investigation, although it did not reach a conclusive finding.

The recurring triangular configuration is particularly interesting when considered alongside decades of similar reports.

3. The Gulf of Oman: An AC-130 crew encounters mysterious orbs

One of the more unusual military reports concerns an AC-130J gunship operating over the Gulf of Oman.

According to the released intelligence material, the crew encountered approximately 25 objects described as cold orbs. The report describes objects moving away between the pulling of the trigger and the weapon's recoil.

This is an interesting case because it involves an operational military aircraft and a reported interaction with objects during an actual weapons engagement.

The obvious questions concern what the crew observed, what sensors recorded, how the objects were tracked, and whether conventional explanations were adequately investigated.

4. The Utah ranch investigation: Bigelow Aerospace and the strange encounters

The seventh release contains additional records connected to the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) and its contractor, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS).

Among the most unusual documents is an April 2010 investigation report concerning a Utah property.

Investigators reportedly interviewed residents, ranchers, law enforcement personnel, business owners, and members of nearby communities. The records describe accounts of strange lights, unusual creatures, and other unexplained events.

Some descriptions included dog-like bipedal creatures and little people.

The contractor also documented sensor measurements and proposed experiments involving biological sensors.

It is important to distinguish the recorded witness accounts from independently established findings. Nevertheless, the paperwork provides an interesting look into how seriously some government-funded contractors explored reports that went well beyond conventional flying saucer sightings.

5. The mysterious Tremonton film and the Navy's photographic analysis

The 1952 Tremonton, Utah, UFO film has been a subject of debate for decades.

The sixth release brought additional historical documentation from Project Blue Book, including a substantial file concerning the film and a recording of former Blue Book chief Captain Edward Ruppelt discussing the investigation.

The fifth release also included a 1953 Navy photographic interpretation study examining the Tremonton footage and the Great Falls film.

These historical records are important because they allow researchers to revisit the original investigative process rather than relying exclusively on later retellings.

What did investigators believe they were looking at? What assumptions did they make? And how much of the original evidence can still be independently evaluated?

6. Astronaut encounters, NASA recordings, and the STS-80 photographs

Several releases contain NASA material that deserves attention.

Among the records are astronaut communications and mission debriefings from the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo eras. One particularly interesting historical recording concerns astronaut Frank Borman during the Gemini 7 mission, when an unidentified object was discussed during communications.

The fourth batch also included three photographs from the 1996 Space Shuttle Columbia STS-80 mission showing an unidentified object in low Earth orbit.

Apollo 14 and Apollo 17 debriefing audio was also included.

None of these materials automatically establishes an extraterrestrial explanation. Spaceflight photography is particularly susceptible to confusing reflections, debris, ice particles, and other optical effects. Still, original mission recordings and photographs are far more useful to investigators than secondhand stories.

7. The 1950s international sightings

The seventh release also contains a collection of older Air Force intelligence reports from the 1950s.

Reports include observations from Sweden, Saudi Arabia, Guam, Italy, Germany, Morocco, Alaska, and other locations.

One report from January 1957 describes a B-52 crew over Saudi Arabia detecting an unidentified blip on a gunnery scope for approximately five to seven minutes.

These older records are valuable because they demonstrate that military personnel were documenting unusual aerial observations long before the modern UAP terminology became popular.

They also provide an opportunity to compare descriptions, investigative procedures, and military attitudes across different decades.

8. The AAWSAP research program: Wormholes, antigravity, and advanced propulsion

The sixth and seventh releases provide a closer look at AAWSAP, a Defense Intelligence Agency-funded initiative that explored advanced aerospace concepts.

The released research papers cover subjects including:

  • Warp drives and spacetime engineering.
  • Wormholes and negative mass.
  • Antigravity concepts.
  • Invisibility and optical cloaking.
  • Advanced propulsion systems.
  • Reported physiological effects associated with unusual aerospace encounters.

The program's existence is significant, but the distinction between researching a theoretical concept and demonstrating that the technology exists is essential.

The documents do not establish that the government successfully developed these technologies. They do, however, reveal the breadth of subjects that received government-funded research attention.

9. The question of recovered space materials

Another interesting historical thread involves government memoranda from the early 1960s concerning the recovery and handling of fragments from spacecraft and reentering space vehicles.

The records describe interagency discussions about responsibility for recovering American and Soviet space debris, including material that might land in foreign countries.

These documents are not proof of recovered extraterrestrial technology. But they offer an interesting historical look at how officials approached unidentified or potentially sensitive materials during the space race.

What does all of this actually tell us?

Perhaps the most important takeaway from the seven releases isn't any single UFO sighting. It's the sheer variety of records now available.

We have military observations, FBI interviews, NASA mission material, historical Air Force investigations, contractor reports, scientific research papers, and intelligence correspondence.

Some cases may eventually receive ordinary explanations. Others may remain unresolved because the original data is incomplete or insufficient.

But the availability of original records gives independent researchers an opportunity to examine the evidence, compare witness accounts, challenge official interpretations, and ask questions that might otherwise have remained buried in government archives.

There is also a distinction worth remembering: an official document establishes that a report or investigation existed. It does not automatically establish that every detail in the report was accurate.

That is precisely why independent analysis matters.

The UFO subject has suffered from two recurring problems: unquestioning belief and unquestioning dismissal. Neither approach is particularly useful when actual documents are available for examination.

We should be able to investigate unusual reports without automatically declaring them extraterrestrial, just as we should be able to question official explanations without automatically assuming that every case is a conspiracy.

The files are out. Now comes the more interesting part: figuring out what they actually tell us.


Further Reading and Independent Research

These are useful starting points for readers who want to go beyond the headlines:

  1. Official Department of War PURSUE Archive — Search and download the original government records: https://www.war.gov/UFO/

  2. The Pentagon UFO Files: A Complete Guide to the Seven Releases — A detailed breakdown of the individual batches and their contents: https://watchthestars.co.uk/uap-document-archive/us-pursue-releases/

  3. UFO/UAP Wiki: Key Disclosure Documents — A curated guide to some of the most significant documents: https://ufouap.wiki/disclosure-documents/key-disclosure-documents/

  4. Alien Watch: PURSUE Document Analysis — An independent effort to examine the released PDFs, including document-by-document analysis and historical context: https://alienwatch.buzz/dossier/pursue

  5. WARUFO: Data Analysis of the 478 Files — An attempt to systematically examine the released material, including shapes, sensors, reported speeds, and other characteristics: https://warufo.com/deep-dive

  6. CBS News: Pentagon's Sixth UFO File Release — Reporting on AAWSAP, the DIA research papers, and the advanced aerospace concepts: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ufo-files-uap-pentagon-6th-release/

  7. Now Declassified: Seventh Release Analysis — A closer look at the October 23 release, including the Utah ranch investigation and 2026 triangular-object report: https://www.nowdeclassified.com/guides/pursue-release-07

This is an ongoing subject. Additional releases, corrections, and independent examinations may change how some of these cases are understood.

Is Russell Brand Being Used to Deter Others From Speaking Against the Government Narrative?

Is Russell Brand Being Used to Deter Others From Speaking Against the Government Narrative?

Excerpt:

The UK is a now a Dictatorship

In order to shut off the popular “free speech zones,” Dame Dinenage, has callously bypassed the legal process and has effectively filled the role of not only the judge and jury, but also the executioner and sanctioned an unconvicted man despite lack of evidence of the accusations thrown at him.

This is not because the government gives a monkey’s about the alleged victims, the Brand investigation was to bring a red pilling “ring leader” down in their mission to violate our right of freedom of expression online, and to silence all dissenting voices.

They have shown that in their quest to do so, they are willing to stoop very low which will act as a deterrent to others who speak out against them. Make no mistake, this is not how a democracy looks. We are in a dictatorship, an era more befitting of a dystopian novel.

Full Article:

https://expose-news.com/2023/09/22/is-russell-brand-being-used-to-deter-others-from-speaking-against-the-government-narrative/

Go there and make a comment if you disagree. I'm sure there will spirited debate. 

Ten Strange Cat Behaviors Explained

Ten Strange Cat Behaviors Explained

From knocking things off tables to running around like the house is haunted, here's what your feline friend might be trying to tell you.


Cats are fascinating creatures. They're affectionate, mysterious, entertaining, occasionally destructive, and sometimes downright bizarre. They can spend hours sleeping in a sunny window, then suddenly sprint through the house like they've just received an urgent message from another dimension.

Some of their strangest behaviors actually have perfectly reasonable explanations. Others are rooted in instincts that domestic cats have carried with them for thousands of years.

Here are ten peculiar things cats do—and what might be going on inside those little furry heads.

1. Knocking Things Off Tables

“I wonder what happens if I push this?”

Few cat behaviors are as recognizable—or as frustrating—as watching a cat slowly reach out one paw and push a perfectly good object off a table.

A glass, a pen, a set of keys, a decorative figurine... nothing is safe.

Cats are natural hunters, and their paws are important investigative tools. They use them to explore objects, test movement, and interact with their surroundings. Something sitting on a table may simply be an irresistible experiment.

There's also the possibility of attention-seeking. If knocking something over reliably makes a human jump up, shout, or rush across the room, the cat may learn that this is an excellent way to get noticed.

Of course, sometimes a cat may simply be curious.

The important thing is that your cat probably isn't plotting your financial ruin. Probably.

2. Kneading Blankets Like They're Making Biscuits

Cats sometimes push their paws rhythmically against blankets, pillows, clothing, or even their humans.

This behavior is commonly called kneading, and it begins when kittens press their mother's belly to stimulate milk flow.

Many cats carry the behavior into adulthood. It may be associated with comfort, relaxation, and the security they experienced as kittens.

Cats also have scent glands in their paws, so kneading may help mark familiar places and objects.

If your cat is making biscuits on your lap, consider it a compliment. Just keep a blanket handy if the claws are particularly enthusiastic.

3. Bringing You Dead Animals or Toys

You may wake up to discover that your cat has deposited a toy mouse, an unfortunate insect, or something considerably less pleasant at your feet.

Why?

Cats are natural hunters, even when they're well-fed domestic pets. Hunting behavior is instinctive, and catching prey doesn't necessarily mean they're hungry.

Some researchers and animal behaviorists suggest that bringing prey home may be related to maternal behavior, social interaction, or the instinct to bring food to a familiar location.

When the offering is a toy, your cat may simply be inviting you to participate in the hunt.

Try to appreciate the gesture—even if you would have preferred a gift card.

4. Staring at Absolutely Nothing

Cats sometimes freeze, stare at a blank wall, or follow something invisible across the room with their eyes.

Are they seeing ghosts?

Probably not—but their senses are different from ours.

Cats have excellent hearing and can detect high-frequency sounds that humans cannot hear. Their vision is also particularly good at detecting movement, especially in low light.

A tiny insect, a sound inside a wall, a reflection, or movement outside a window might capture their attention even when we have no idea what's happening.

So before calling a paranormal investigator, consider checking for bugs.

Although, if your cat starts pointing at the ceiling and speaking in Latin, let us know.

5. Running Around the House Like They're Being Chased by Demons

One minute your cat is peacefully sleeping. The next, it's racing down the hallway, jumping over furniture, and making sharp turns like a tiny furry race car.

These episodes are often called zoomies, or more formally, frenetic random activity periods.

Cats sleep a lot, but they also have bursts of energy. In the wild, hunting involves short periods of intense activity rather than hours of continuous running.

Domestic cats may release pent-up energy through sudden sprints, especially at night or around dawn and dusk.

A little playtime with interactive toys can help provide an outlet for that energy.

And if you happen to have several cats, the zoomies can quickly turn into a full-scale household demolition derby.

6. Sitting in Boxes That Are Clearly Too Small

You can buy an expensive cat bed, provide a comfortable cushion, and arrange the perfect sleeping area.

Your cat will probably choose the cardboard box the bed came in.

Boxes provide enclosed spaces where cats can feel protected. They offer opportunities to hide, observe their surroundings, and regulate body temperature.

A small box may also provide a sense of security because it limits exposure from multiple directions.

For cats, a cardboard box isn't packaging.

It's premium real estate.

7. Chattering at Birds Through Windows

Have you ever heard your cat making strange clicking or chattering noises while watching birds?

This behavior is particularly common when cats observe potential prey that they cannot reach.

One explanation is that the sounds are related to hunting excitement or frustration. Some researchers have also proposed that the behavior may resemble the rapid biting action cats use when killing prey, although the exact reason isn't fully understood.

Whatever the explanation, the combination of focused eyes, twitching tail, and strange little noises makes for quite a show.

Your cat may be dreaming of becoming a professional hunter.

Unfortunately, the window is currently interfering with its career.

8. Head-Butting You and Rubbing Against Everything

Cats frequently rub their faces against people, furniture, doorways, and other familiar objects.

This is called bunting when they use their heads to make contact.

Cats have scent glands around their cheeks, chin, and forehead. Rubbing deposits familiar scents and helps establish a comfortable, recognizable environment.

When your cat head-butts you, it may be marking you as familiar and safe.

It's also a form of social bonding.

In other words, your cat may be saying, “You belong to my world.”

Which is adorable, although the ownership paperwork is apparently one-sided.

9. Suddenly Biting You During a Petting Session

Everything seems fine. Your cat is purring, enjoying the attention, and settling comfortably beside you.

Then—CHOMP!

Some cats have a relatively low tolerance for prolonged petting. What begins as enjoyable contact can eventually become overstimulating.

Watch for warning signs such as a twitching tail, flattened ears, rippling skin, tense muscles, or sudden changes in posture.

Other cats may use gentle biting as part of play or social interaction.

The best approach is to respect their signals and give them space when they seem uncomfortable.

Remember: a cat can love you and still have very firm opinions about personal boundaries.

10. Acting Starving When There's Still Food in the Bowl

You just fed your cat. The bowl contains perfectly good food.

Yet somehow, your cat is behaving as though it hasn't eaten in three weeks.

Some cats prefer fresh food, may dislike the location or cleanliness of their bowl, or simply enjoy the attention that comes with asking for another meal.

There may also be an interesting relationship between food availability and feeding behavior. Cats are natural opportunistic feeders, and their appetite and preferences can be influenced by routine, food freshness, and the environment.

One observation many cat owners make is that cats sometimes seem less interested in the last few pieces of food in a bowl, but become enthusiastic again when the bowl is refilled.

It's almost as if the same food becomes more exciting simply because it has been presented as something new.

Of course, a sudden increase in hunger can sometimes indicate a medical issue, particularly if accompanied by weight loss, increased thirst, or other changes. Persistent changes in appetite deserve a conversation with a veterinarian.

But if your cat has simply mastered the art of convincing you that an empty bowl is a household emergency, you may be dealing with a very experienced negotiator.

The Wonderful Mystery of Cats

Cats are a combination of instinct, personality, curiosity, and individual quirks.

Some behaviors have clear evolutionary explanations. Others are still being studied. And sometimes, the most honest answer is that we don't know exactly why a particular cat does something.

That's part of their charm.

They can be affectionate one moment, aloof the next, and then spend the following hour trying to fit themselves into a box designed for a toaster.

They may knock over your favorite cup, bring you questionable presents, or stare at an empty corner of the room with unsettling intensity.

But they also provide companionship, entertainment, and an endless supply of stories.

And perhaps that's the real explanation behind living with cats: you never quite know what they're going to do next.

Just keep the breakables away from the edge of the table.

Saturday, November 7, 2026

Hang in There: Why the Next 10 to 15 Years Could Change Everything for Chronic Illness

Hang in There: Why the Next 10 to 15 Years Could Change Everything for Chronic Illness

By JM Talboo --- WelcomeToHealth.blogspot.com

If you live with chronic pain or an autoimmune condition, you know how heavy the day-to-day grind can be. Between managing symptoms, navigating side effects from treatments, and trying to keep your quality of life intact, it’s easy to feel like you’re stuck in an endless loop.

When you’re in the middle of a flare-up, telling someone to "just hang in there" can sound hollow. When every day brings another struggle, it's difficult to imagine that things could ever be different.

But here's something worth remembering: medicine isn't standing still.

Right now, researchers are exploring technologies and treatments that could fundamentally change how we approach chronic illness. Advances in artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, genetic engineering, and regenerative medicine are opening doors that were barely imaginable a generation ago.

We can't promise that every disease will have a cure in the next 10 to 15 years. But there are genuine reasons to believe that the future of medicine could look very different from the present.

If you are struggling today, here is why the future might hold far more hope than you think.

1. Medicine Is Becoming Hyper-Targeted

For decades, treating chronic conditions often meant using broad-spectrum treatments—medications that calm the entire immune system or temporarily mask pain while potentially causing collateral damage elsewhere.

Immunosuppressive medications can be extremely important and effective, but they sometimes come with trade-offs. Suppressing immune activity throughout the body can leave patients more vulnerable to infections and other complications.

That model is gradually being supplemented by something more precise.

Researchers are actively developing targeted nanotechnologies designed to deliver therapeutic payloads to particular cells, tissues, or areas of inflammation. Instead of distributing a medication throughout the entire body, the goal is to concentrate its effects where they are needed most.

This could eventually mean more effective treatment with fewer unwanted effects.

Research published in Asian Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences examines advances in nanotechnology for autoimmune diseases, including targeted nanocarriers, immune-tolerizing nanoparticles, exosomes, and mRNA-based approaches. Researchers are investigating ways to influence immune activity more precisely rather than simply suppressing it across the board.

Source: Advances in Nanotechnology for the Diagnosis and Management of Autoimmune Diseases – PubMed Central

Imagine a future in which a treatment can identify a particular inflammatory process and intervene at that location without unnecessarily affecting the rest of the body.

We aren't there yet for most chronic conditions, but the direction of research is encouraging.

2. AI Is Fast-Tracking Breakthroughs

In the past, discovering a new drug or treatment pathway could involve years of laboratory work, experimentation, and trial and error.

Today, artificial intelligence is becoming an increasingly important research tool.

AI systems can analyze enormous biological datasets, help researchers identify potential drug targets, predict protein structures, and explore possible interactions between molecules. They can also help researchers identify patterns that might otherwise take enormous amounts of time to recognize.

One major milestone was AlphaFold, an artificial intelligence system developed by Google DeepMind. Its ability to predict protein structures has given scientists a powerful new tool for understanding the biological machinery involved in disease.

Protein structure matters because proteins perform countless functions in the human body. Understanding their shapes and interactions can help researchers investigate how diseases develop and how treatments might interfere with harmful processes.

Scientific paper: Highly Accurate Protein Structure Prediction With AlphaFold – Nature

AI could also help identify new uses for existing medications, improve the selection of drug candidates, and assist in designing clinical trials.

A promising molecule still has to demonstrate that it is safe and effective in humans, but AI could help researchers explore more possibilities, identify promising targets earlier, and make better use of limited research resources.

A 2026 review in Nature Reviews Drug Discovery examines both the potential and the limitations of AI in drug discovery.

Source: Artificial Intelligence in Drug Discovery—What It Is, Where We Stand and the Path Forward

Think about what that could mean. Researchers may be able to investigate biological problems more quickly and explore treatment possibilities that previously would have taken far longer to discover.

It's not a magic shortcut, but it could become one of medicine's most valuable tools.

3. We Are Moving From Management to Cellular Repair

We aren't just looking at better band-aids; we are looking at real repair.

Advancements in DNA engineering, regenerative medicine, and cellular therapies are laying the foundation for treatments that may eventually do more than reduce symptoms. Researchers are investigating ways to repair damaged tissues, replace dysfunctional cells, and re-educate overactive immune systems.

One especially interesting development involves CAR-T cell therapy.

CAR-T treatments were originally developed to help the immune system recognize and attack certain cancer cells. Researchers are now exploring whether similar techniques can be used against autoimmune diseases.

In some autoimmune conditions, particular immune cells mistakenly attack the body's own tissues. By modifying a patient's T cells to target certain immune-cell populations, scientists hope they can eliminate problematic cells and allow a healthier immune system to re-establish itself.

This has become known as the possibility of an immune reset.

A 2024 review in Nature Reviews Rheumatology examined the potential of CAR-T therapies for conditions including lupus, systemic sclerosis, inflammatory muscle diseases, and other autoimmune disorders.

Source: Advancements and Challenges in CAR T Cell Therapy in Autoimmune Diseases – Nature Reviews Rheumatology

An additional 2024 position statement published in eClinicalMedicine examined innovative cellular therapies for autoimmune diseases, including CAR-T cells, mesenchymal stromal cells, and regulatory T cells.

Source: Innovative Cellular Therapies for Autoimmune Diseases – eClinicalMedicine

These approaches are still being investigated, but the idea behind them is remarkable.

Instead of simply trying to suppress an immune system that is malfunctioning, scientists are investigating whether they can change the behavior of the cells responsible for the problem.

That is a very different approach to medicine—and one that could eventually make a tremendous difference for people who have spent years managing autoimmune conditions.

4. Genetic Medicine Could Address Disease at Its Source

Another major area of progress is gene therapy and genetic engineering.

Some diseases are caused by identifiable genetic mutations. In those cases, researchers can investigate whether correcting or compensating for the underlying genetic problem might offer a more fundamental treatment than managing symptoms throughout a person's lifetime.

Gene therapies are already moving beyond theoretical research.

In December 2025, the FDA approved Waskyra, a cell-based gene therapy for Wiskott-Aldrich syndrome. The treatment uses a patient's own blood-forming stem cells, genetically modified to address the underlying genetic defect.

In March 2026, the FDA also approved Kresladi, a gene therapy for severe leukocyte adhesion deficiency type I, another rare inherited immune disorder.

These are specialized treatments for rare genetic diseases, not general cures for chronic pain or autoimmune conditions. Nevertheless, they demonstrate that genetic medicine is becoming a real clinical tool.

Sources:

FDA: First Gene Therapy Treatment for Wiskott-Aldrich Syndrome

FDA: First Gene Therapy for Severe Leukocyte Adhesion Deficiency Type I

The larger possibility is that advances in gene editing, cellular engineering, and personalized medicine could eventually help address biological problems that conventional treatments can only manage.

Not every chronic condition has a single genetic cause, but as scientists learn more about the interactions between genetics, environment, immune function, and other factors, new treatment opportunities may emerge.

5. Regenerative Medicine Could Change What Recovery Means

Another promising area is regenerative medicine.

Traditional medicine often focuses on preventing further damage, controlling inflammation, or replacing lost function with medication, surgery, or assistive devices.

Regenerative medicine asks a different question:

Can the body be encouraged to repair itself?

Researchers are studying stem cells, tissue engineering, biomaterials, and other approaches that may help restore damaged tissues or improve healing.

One area of interest involves mesenchymal stromal cells, which are being investigated for their ability to influence inflammation, immune responses, and tissue repair.

Other researchers are exploring how regulatory T cells—immune cells that help prevent excessive immune activity—might be used to restore immune balance.

These approaches are not interchangeable, and their effectiveness depends heavily on the disease being treated. Some have produced encouraging early results, while others remain experimental.

The FDA warns that many regenerative medicine products are marketed without adequate evidence of safety and effectiveness, so patients should be careful about clinics advertising unproven stem-cell treatments as established cures.

Source: FDA: Important Patient and Consumer Information About Regenerative Medicine Therapies

But legitimate research is moving forward, and the long-term goal is exciting: moving beyond simply managing damage and toward restoring function wherever possible.

Imagine being able to repair tissue that previously could only be managed through ongoing treatment. For many people living with chronic illness, that possibility alone is worth watching.

The Best Strategy: Play the Long Game

Living with a chronic condition requires playing the long game. Some days that means getting through the next hour; other days it means making the appointments, advocating for better care options, and protecting your body as best as you can today so you are ready for what’s available tomorrow.

It also means allowing yourself to look forward to something.

You don't have to be optimistic every minute. You don't have to pretend that living with chronic illness is easy. And you certainly don't have to feel guilty on the days when simply getting through the day is an accomplishment.

But don't let today's medical limitations convince you that tomorrow's possibilities are equally limited.

Science is working around the clock to catch up to our needs. Researchers are investigating new ways to target inflammation, repair tissues, modify immune responses, and understand the underlying causes of disease.

Some of these developments will take years to become available. Others may surprise us by progressing faster than expected.

The breakthrough you need might not be here today, but it is being built right now.

Final Thoughts: Don't Give Up on Tomorrow

For someone living with chronic illness, the future isn't an abstract scientific concept. It's the possibility of waking up with less pain, having more energy, spending more time with loved ones, or finally finding a treatment that works without creating a whole new set of problems.

We cannot promise that the next 10 to 15 years will bring a cure for every chronic condition. But we can recognize that medicine is entering a period of remarkable scientific development.

And that is worth getting excited about.

If you're struggling today, hang in there.

You don't have to solve everything today. You don't have to know what the future holds. Just keep doing what you can, keep advocating for yourself, and give science a little more time to work.

Maybe the next breakthrough won't arrive tomorrow. Maybe it will take years. But those years are going to pass anyway, and there's a real possibility that the medical landscape waiting on the other side will look very different.

Don't give up on the possibility of feeling better. The future is still being written, and you deserve to be here to see what comes next.

Hang in there. The future of health is coming, and there are incredible things just around the corner.

Michael Shermer Under the Microscope: The Critics, Researchers, Scientists, and Scholars Who Have Challenged the Skeptic-in-Chief

Michael Shermer Under the Microscope: The Critics, Researchers, Scientists, and Scholars Who Have Challenged the Skeptic-in-Chief

By JM Talboo
DebunkerBusters.blogspot.com

An ongoing catalog of challenges to Michael Shermer's arguments, interpretations, conclusions, and approach to skepticism

Michael Shermer is one of the best-known public skeptics in America. As the founder of the Skeptics Society and publisher of Skeptic magazine, he has built much of his public reputation around examining extraordinary claims, challenging pseudoscience, and separating evidence from speculation.

His subjects have included UFOs, paranormal phenomena, psychic abilities, religion, God, evolution, consciousness, near-death experiences, climate change, history, morality, and human psychology.

But what happens when the skeptic becomes the subject of skepticism?

There is another side to this story that deserves attention: the people who have challenged Shermer's arguments, questioned his interpretations of scientific research, disputed his conclusions, or accused him of applying skepticism inconsistently.

This isn't an argument that Shermer is always wrong. Nor does disagreeing with him automatically make someone right. Rather, it is an invitation to apply the same critical-thinking standards to Shermer that he applies to everyone else.

Below is a collection of some of the more interesting challenges, disputes, and counterarguments worth investigating.

1. Steve Weathers (SpookyOne): Challenging Michael Shermer's 9/11 arguments

Subject areas: September 11, WTC collapses, forensic evidence, thermite claims, demolition evidence, and the treatment of 9/11 researchers.

An interesting entry from the 911 Debunkers archives comes from February 4, 2010.

The article, titled "911 Truth: Michael Shermer's Amateur Disinformation Attempt Fails (again!)," was written by Steve Weathers, known online as SpookyOne.

Steve is a contributor to 911 Debunkers and a good friend of mine. His work is part of the history of this blog's ongoing examination of 9/11 claims, counterclaims, and the people who attempt to debunk them.

In this particular article, Steve challenged Shermer's response to 9/11 researchers and examined a number of arguments concerning the destruction of the World Trade Center buildings.

Among the subjects addressed were:

  • The interpretation of the World Trade Center collapses.
  • Claims concerning molten metal and thermite.
  • Alleged explosive ejections during the collapses.
  • Eyewitness reports of explosions.
  • The collapse of World Trade Center 7.
  • The significance of Larry Silverstein's "pull it" comment.
  • The removal and preservation of World Trade Center steel.
  • Shermer's reliance on demolition-industry commentary.

The rebuttal also challenged the way Shermer characterized the people questioning the official account, arguing that he was dismissing substantive questions rather than adequately addressing them.

This is another example of the long-running debate over Shermer's treatment of 9/11 research and the counterarguments that have been published in response.

Original article:

911 Truth: Michael Shermer's Amateur Disinformation Attempt Fails (again!) — Steve Weathers (SpookyOne), February 4, 2010

Another contribution: Michael Shermer the Pseudo Skeptical Propagandist (October 15, 2013)

Steve Weathers returned to the subject of Michael Shermer in another article published on 911 Debunkers, titled Michael Shermer the Pseudo Skeptical Propagandist.

This time, Steve brought together criticisms from two researchers: Jim Hoffman, a prominent 9/11 researcher, and Professor Anthony Hall.

The article examines several recurring criticisms of Shermer's approach to 9/11:

  • Jim Hoffman and the scientific method: Hoffman challenged Shermer's use of sweeping generalizations when dismissing 9/11 research and argued that Shermer failed to engage with the cumulative evidence presented by researchers.
  • Misrepresentation of opposing arguments: The article examines Hoffman's criticism that Shermer reduced complex arguments to simplified versions that were easier to dismiss.
  • Professor Anthony Hall and guilt by association: Hall criticized Shermer's tendency to group together very different researchers and controversial subjects under the broad label of conspiracy theory.
  • The use of ridicule and psychological associations: Hall questioned whether Shermer's presentations encouraged audiences to dismiss researchers through association and ridicule rather than examining their specific evidence.
  • The broader question of scientific skepticism: Both criticisms raise the question of whether Shermer consistently applies the scientific standards he advocates.

Steve's article also revisits Shermer's arguments concerning the World Trade Center collapses, molten metal, and the treatment of 9/11 researchers.

This is a particularly worthwhile addition because it documents not just Steve's own criticism, but also his effort to bring the work of other critics into the discussion.

Original article:

Michael Shermer the Pseudo Skeptical Propagandist — Steve Weathers (SpookyOne), October 15, 2013

2. Rupert Sheldrake: Is Shermer practicing skepticism or defending materialism?

Subject areas: Morphic resonance, telepathy, consciousness, the sense of being stared at, and the philosophy of science.

One of the most direct and extensive challenges to Shermer comes from biologist and author Rupert Sheldrake.

Sheldrake has repeatedly challenged Shermer's treatment of his research, particularly regarding morphic resonance and experiments investigating whether people can detect when somebody is staring at them.

In a response titled Do Skeptics Play Fair?, Sheldrake argued that Shermer had mischaracterized his hypothesis, including attributing a concept of a universal life force to him that Sheldrake says he never proposed.

Sheldrake also disputed Shermer's presentation of the experimental evidence concerning the sense of being stared at, arguing that Shermer left out relevant published research and independent analyses.

This is particularly interesting because the disagreement isn't simply about whether paranormal phenomena exist. It concerns the standards by which evidence is evaluated and whether a skeptic can dismiss a hypothesis without adequately engaging with the research behind it.

Further reading:

  • Rupert Sheldrake: Do Skeptics Play Fair?
  • Sheldrake: Countering the Reactions of Skeptics
  • Michael Shermer's Attacks, Updated
  • The debate continues

Sheldrake and Shermer have also participated in discussions covering the nature of science, psi phenomena, and the existence of God.

Their exchanges are collected in Arguing Science.

That's worth examining in its own right: two people who disagree about the boundaries of scientific inquiry actually putting their arguments on the table.

3. Pim van Lommel: The near-death experience controversy

Subject areas: Near-death experiences, consciousness, brain activity, and the mind-brain relationship.

Dutch cardiologist Pim van Lommel became well known for research into near-death experiences, including a landmark study published in The Lancet in 2001.

Shermer discussed the research in connection with the question of whether consciousness can exist independently of the brain.

However, critics disputed his interpretation of the study.

Science communicator Jay Ingram criticized Shermer's presentation, arguing that he had used the study to support a conclusion contrary to the researchers' own interpretation.

Van Lommel subsequently wrote to Scientific American to challenge Shermer's characterization.

There is an important distinction here: the study does not establish that consciousness survives death, nor does it prove that the brain is irrelevant to consciousness. But the disagreement over what the research actually says is precisely the kind of issue that deserves closer examination.

Further reading:

  • Skeptical About Skeptics: Michael Shermer
  • Pim van Lommel research and near-death experiences

4. Dean Radin: Can psi research be dismissed so easily?

Subject areas: Telepathy, parapsychology, experimental research, statistics, and consciousness.

Dean Radin is a researcher associated with the Institute of Noetic Sciences and a prominent figure in experimental parapsychology.

Radin has challenged conventional skeptical dismissals of psi research, including the question of whether statistical results across multiple experiments deserve consideration.

He is particularly relevant to Shermer's disputes with Sheldrake.

Sheldrake has cited Radin's meta-analysis of research into the sense of being stared at as evidence that the subject deserves more serious consideration than Shermer's criticism suggests.

Radin has also publicly defended Sheldrake's work against dismissals that he considers insufficiently informed.

The larger question is whether a collection of statistically significant experimental results should be dismissed because the proposed phenomenon conflicts with prevailing scientific expectations.

That doesn't mean the existence of telepathy has been established. It means the experimental evidence, statistical methods, replication record, and competing explanations should be examined rather than settled through labels.

Further reading:

  • Society for Psychical Research: Michael Shermer
  • Rupert Sheldrake: Do Skeptics Play Fair?

5. Freeman Dyson: When a respected physicist disagrees with the skeptic

Subject areas: Scientific evidence, telepathy, anecdotal evidence, and the limits of scientific certainty.

The late physicist Freeman Dyson is another important name in this discussion.

Shermer criticized Dyson for being open to the possibility that paranormal phenomena might exist, arguing that anecdotal experiences and personal accounts are not substitutes for controlled experiments.

Dyson, however, had expressed interest in the substantial body of reported experiences and research surrounding psi phenomena.

The disagreement raises a broader question: How should scientists approach evidence that doesn't fit comfortably within existing explanatory frameworks?

Dyson's interest was not proof of paranormal phenomena. But his willingness to consider the possibility is worth distinguishing from an uncritical acceptance of extraordinary claims.

Further reading:

  • Michael Shermer: Skeptical About Skeptics

6. Dallas Willard: Science, religion, and the limits of materialism

Subject areas: Philosophy, religion, consciousness, free will, and the relationship between science and spirituality.

Dallas Willard was a philosopher and professor who engaged with Shermer on questions involving science and religion.

A 2004 Veritas Forum discussion at UCLA brought Shermer into a conversation about free will and the application of science to spiritual questions.

Willard represented a philosophical perspective that challenged the assumption that scientific explanations necessarily settle every question about reality.

This is an important distinction. Science can investigate observable phenomena, but philosophical questions about knowledge, meaning, consciousness, and the nature of existence don't automatically disappear simply because somebody adopts a materialist worldview.

Further reading:

  • UCLA: Forum Debates Connection Between Science and Religion

7. Ian Hutchinson: Does science refute the existence of God?

Subject areas: Physics, theology, scientific naturalism, and arguments for God's existence.

Ian Hutchinson is an MIT professor of nuclear science and engineering who has publicly challenged arguments that science disproves God.

In an Intelligence Squared debate, Hutchinson argued against the proposition that science refutes the existence of God.

His opponents included Michael Shermer and physicist Lawrence Krauss.

This is an interesting entry because it places Shermer's arguments against religion in direct confrontation with someone who has a professional background in science.

The important question isn't whether Hutchinson's position automatically wins because he is a scientist. It's whether Shermer's arguments adequately address the philosophical and scientific arguments presented by his opponents.

Further reading:

  • Does Science Refute the Existence of God? — Intelligence Squared debate

8. Dinesh D'Souza: A public debate over science and God

Subject areas: Religion, atheism, philosophy, and the relationship between scientific knowledge and belief.

Dinesh D'Souza participated in the same Intelligence Squared debate, arguing against the proposition that science refutes God.

D'Souza is a controversial political commentator and author, so his arguments should be evaluated independently of his political positions.

Nevertheless, his participation provides another opportunity to examine Shermer's arguments in a formal debate setting.

It also illustrates why a catalog of Shermer's opponents should not be restricted to scientists or paranormal researchers. Philosophers, theologians, historians, and public intellectuals have all challenged different aspects of his worldview.

9. Robert Todd Carroll and the wider skeptical movement: Skeptics disagree with skeptics, too

Subject areas: Skeptical methodology, parapsychology, scientific reasoning, and competing interpretations of evidence.

Not every interesting disagreement involving Shermer comes from somebody defending paranormal or religious claims.

The skeptical movement itself contains disagreements about methodology, evidence, and how extraordinary claims should be evaluated.

Robert Todd Carroll was the creator of The Skeptic's Dictionary and a prominent figure in organized skepticism.

Sheldrake specifically challenged Carroll's criticisms of morphic resonance and his treatment of research involving the parrot N'kisi.

This is worth including because it demonstrates that the disagreements surrounding Shermer's subjects extend beyond a simple skeptic-versus-believer divide.

Sometimes the dispute is between two people who both identify with skepticism but disagree about the interpretation of the evidence.

Further reading:

  • Sheldrake: Countering the Reactions of Skeptics

10. Other areas worth investigating

There are additional areas where Shermer's arguments deserve examination, even when the criticism isn't necessarily a direct rebuttal from a named opponent.

Here are several research directions for expanding this catalog.

SubjectPeople or material worth investigating
Near-death experiencesPim van Lommel, Bruce Greyson, Sam Parnia
Psi researchDean Radin, Rupert Sheldrake
ConsciousnessDavid Chalmers, Bernardo Kastrup
Religion and philosophyDallas Willard, Ian Hutchinson
Scientific skepticismRobert Todd Carroll, Rupert Sheldrake
Climate changeShermer's earlier climate skepticism and subsequent change of position
History and moralityAcademic reviews and critiques of The Moral Arc
Evolution and intelligent designFormal debates and responses to Shermer's arguments

These are research leads, not a claim that every person listed has directly debunked Shermer. Some have challenged the broader positions he defends, and those distinctions matter.

For example, Shermer himself publicly changed his position on human-caused climate change in 2006 after concluding that the evidence had become persuasive. That's an interesting example of a skeptic revising a position in response to new information.

And that's exactly the kind of intellectual honesty that should be encouraged.

11. Can Shermer's own standards be applied to Shermer?

One of the most useful ways to approach this subject is to compare Shermer's stated philosophy of skepticism with the criticisms directed at his work.

Shermer has argued that skeptics should be willing to change their minds when presented with new evidence.

He has also emphasized the importance of avoiding confirmation bias, examining competing explanations, and distinguishing genuine evidence from unsupported speculation.

Those are reasonable standards.

But they raise some equally reasonable questions:

  • Has Shermer accurately represented the research he criticizes?
  • Does he adequately investigate subjects before publicly dismissing them?
  • Does he distinguish between a lack of an accepted explanation and evidence that something cannot happen?
  • Does he give competing interpretations a fair hearing?
  • Does he apply the same skepticism to materialist assumptions that he applies to religious and paranormal claims?
  • When somebody challenges his conclusions with published research, does he address the substance of the criticism?

These questions aren't accusations of dishonesty. They're questions that should be asked of any influential public intellectual.

12. Resources for continuing the investigation

Here are some useful starting points for readers who want to dig deeper.

  • Psi Encyclopedia: Michael Shermer — An overview of Shermer's views, controversies, and criticisms from the perspective of psychical research.
  • Michael Shermer: Skeptical About Skeptics — A collection of critical examinations of Shermer's work.
  • Rupert Sheldrake: Countering the Reactions of Skeptics — Sheldrake's responses to criticism, including disputes involving Shermer.
  • Do Skeptics Play Fair? — Sheldrake's direct response to Shermer.
  • Michael Shermer's website — Shermer's own website, including articles and responses to criticism.

A note about the sources: Some of these are written by Shermer's critics, rather than independent assessments. Their allegations should be checked against the original research, publications, and responses from Shermer himself.

13. Jeffrey Armstrong: Challenging Michael Shermer on astrology—on his own show

Subject areas: Astrology, Vedic astrology, double-blind testing, experimental methodology, and confirmation bias.

An especially interesting entry comes from astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong, who participated in a filmed exchange with Michael Shermer in which Shermer challenged him to demonstrate the accuracy of astrological readings.

The video, titled Michael Shermer Debunked by Astrologer Jeffrey Armstrong on His Own Show!, presents a direct challenge to Shermer's skepticism about astrology.

The experiment reportedly involved nine participants. Armstrong was given their birth information and recorded short readings without seeing or speaking to the participants. Shermer subsequently evaluated the readings against their responses.

A later examination by Kenneth McRitchie discusses the experiment and reports that participants agreed with 105 of Armstrong's 137 statements, approximately 77 percent. McRitchie also raises questions about the handling of two readings that were allegedly switched, and what happened when the participants heard the corrected readings.

This raises some interesting questions:

  • How were the readings evaluated?
  • How much of the reported accuracy could be attributed to general statements or chance?
  • What effect did the alleged switching of readings have on the results?
  • Did Shermer adequately address the reported outcome?

This isn't proof that astrology is scientifically established. But it is an interesting historical challenge to Shermer's position, particularly because the experiment was conducted in the context of his own skeptical investigation.

Further reading and viewing:

14. Del Bigtree and Michael Shermer: The Unexpected Vaccine Debate

Subject areas: Vaccine safety, childhood vaccination, scientific skepticism, autism, clinical trials, and the interpretation of medical evidence.

Another interesting confrontation involving Michael Shermer took place on The HighWire in October 2023.

In an episode titled Michael Shermer: The Unexpected Vaccine Debate, Shermer appeared in a discussion with Del Bigtree, host of The HighWire and a prominent critic of established vaccine policies.

The episode description explains that Shermer attempted to challenge claims made by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., but the conversation took an unexpected turn when he encountered Bigtree's familiarity with the vaccine debate.

Among the issues raised in the discussion were childhood vaccine testing, placebo-controlled studies, vaccine safety, autism, and the evidence used to support claims about vaccination.

This is an interesting addition because it takes the examination of Shermer into medical science and public-health controversies. It also raises a question central to this article: Does someone who makes a career of challenging questionable claims apply the same level of scrutiny when defending established scientific and medical positions?

The debate should be examined in its entirety, including the claims made by both participants. The fact that Shermer was challenged does not automatically establish that Bigtree's arguments were correct. But the exchange provides readers with another opportunity to evaluate Shermer's reasoning in a direct discussion rather than relying on secondhand characterizations.

Original video:

Michael Shermer: The Unexpected Vaccine Debate — The HighWire, October 16, 2023

15. Jesse Michaels and Jason Jorjani: Challenging Shermer's Dismissal of an Unusual UFO-Related Case

Subject areas: UFOs, intelligence agencies, unexplained disappearances, and skeptical interpretations of unusual cases.

Another interesting reference to Michael Shermer appears in the November 7, 2026, interview There's A Cosmic War Going On Above Your Head (Jason Jorjani Part 3), published on Undebunking UFOs.

During the conversation, host Jesse Michaels brings up his recent interview with Shermer and their disagreement over the disappearance of retired Air Force Major General Neil McCasland. Michaels recounts Shermer's position as essentially dismissing the circumstances as nothing particularly unusual. Michaels pushes back, arguing that McCasland's background and his role overseeing thousands of Special Access Programs made the case worthy of much closer scrutiny.

Michaels also questions Shermer's suggestion that the matter was simply for local authorities to investigate, arguing that the FBI and intelligence agencies should be involved. He even acknowledges that he may have been too accommodating during his own interview with Shermer, saying he was probably too nice.

This is not an extensive examination of Shermer's arguments, nor does it establish that any particular explanation for McCasland's disappearance is correct. But it does provide another example of someone questioning how readily Shermer dismisses an unusual case—this time in a discussion that touches directly on UFOs, intelligence agencies, and the possibility of information being withheld from the public.

Source:

There's A Cosmic War Going On Above Your Head (Jason Jorjani Part 3) — Undebunking UFOs, November 7, 2026

Final thoughts: Nobody gets a free pass from skepticism

Michael Shermer has spent much of his career questioning claims made by other people. He's challenged paranormal investigators, religious believers, UFO researchers, alternative medicine advocates, and proponents of numerous unconventional theories.

That's his prerogative.

But skepticism isn't supposed to be a protected position occupied by a select group of people who get to decide which ideas deserve consideration.

If a paranormal researcher misrepresents a scientific study, that deserves criticism. If a skeptic misrepresents a scientific study, that deserves criticism too.

If somebody makes an extraordinary claim without adequate evidence, challenge it. If somebody dismisses an extraordinary claim without adequately examining the evidence, challenge that as well.

The objective shouldn't be to replace one unquestionable authority with another. It should be to question everybody, including the people who make a living questioning everybody else.

And that includes Michael Shermer.

This article is intended as a starting point for further investigation. The inclusion of an individual or controversy does not imply that Shermer has been conclusively debunked on that subject. Readers are encouraged to examine the original arguments, evidence, and counterarguments.

This is an ongoing investigation. More critics, debates, rebuttals, and documented disagreements can be added as they come to light.

There’s A Cosmic War Going On Above Your Head (Jason Jorjani Part 3)

There’s A Cosmic War Going On Above Your Head  (Jason Jorjani Part 3)


Watch "There’s A Cosmic War Going On Above Your Head  (Jason Jorjani Part 3)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/QjU7FfTcACE?is=JYh6MjFYOMVu1gb9 

Human history is nonlinear and there are all these feedback loops and retrocausal effects going on. At some point, some group of people broke time. I'm here with Jason Georgiani. Round three. You're so encyclopedic in your knowledge of UFO history. I think you have a very clear worldview. >> These things aren't objects. They're some kind of unexplained anomalous phenomena. that is plasmatic and then it can turn into a UFO, but it can also turn from a UFO into a black helicopter. And what it looks like to me is two sources of the close encounter phenomenon. One is this arcantic control system, but then on the other hand, a super intelligence. >> Well, if there is some control system, why do they let certain things go and why do they suppress other things? They take place when humanity is on the verge of figuring something out for itself. >> Towns and Brown was literally saying, "Every time I have a breakthrough, this group in the Bahamas, they kind of suck up the tech. They suck up the IP. When we look at Magenta in 1933, here's a craft that had a Nordic body in it and then promptly handed over to Nazi Germany for reverse engineering." So, that looks an awful lot like a donation to me. In 1954, executives of aeronautical engineering companies were being quoted as saying they have solved anti-gravity and then the whole thing goes dark. By the 1970s, Andrea Puharic had figured out Tesla technology. Like really figured it out. >> Really? >> Yes. The Tesla towers tune quantum potential and propagate thoughts telepathically into people's minds. They built them all underground. One in Alaska, one in South Africa. 1984 and now they're building a third one in Antarctica. >> It's wild because Puharaj isn't some random guy. He was one of the earliest architects of MK Ultra. >> And then here he is saying half the abductions are being faked by some entity within the United States power structure. >> 90% of the sightings are all due to man-made spacecraft. >> He's on record faking an alien abduction with Yuri Geller. Puharic had used psychotronic machines to psychotronically manipulate people all over the place to carry out intelligence operations. >> Betty and Barney Hills regression. The first thing that Barney says is he looks like a Nazi. >> The evil face of that Nazi. >> I think it's both. I think some experiences are truly just transcendent and involve real beings. You can't explain them away through covert military technology. These overlords have always used certain elites as viceroys and proxies to implement their policies. >> Well, fascinating. I don't even know where to go from there, but >> Well, there's a lot of places we >> There are a lot of places we could go. >> Ignition sequence drive. >> How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that. >> Their existence cannot longer be denied. >> I'm here with Jason Georgiani. Round three. You are I think it's only you and Eric Weinstein who's been on three times. And it's because you're the gift that keeps on giving. Every time we sit down, it just flows. and you know so much. You're so encyclopedic in your knowledge of UFO history, but I think you're one of the few people, and I always say this along with Jacqu Valet and maybe a few others who really do a lot of sense making and analysis as to what we're seeing. It's not just data and stories that are impossible to make sense of. I think you have a very clear worldview and at times we disagree on that, but um it's always extremely fun and generative to speak with you. So, I'm grateful that you're here today. Thank you, Jason. >> Well, it's especially a pleasure to be here with you because I don't know, as you might recall, the first conversation we had, you were moving out to Austin and so we weren't able to record in your old studio. We had to rent a studio. And then the second conversation was in LA and we filmed in a restaurant. So, this is the first time I've been graced with, you know, the the Jesse Michaels abode. >> It's a slight slight upgrade for sure. And uh yeah, just you know, we're we're making progress, trying to make moves. But uh no, it's great to have you. And um >> I don't know, there's so much we can we can talk about, but there's this really amazing content creator named Jason Samosa, and he cites your work and he is seems like unraveling the deep state at a faster rate than anybody. and he talks about this world commerce corporation which seems to be this shell corporation that is transnational uh that involves a lot of Nazis actually post World War II >> on the board Donovan Stephvenson Ambrose you've got Dulles doing the legal council there's a whole bunch of other high-powered UK people loads of OSS people who are out of work and there's also connections to organized crime which we can talk about in a minute and the Nazi underground too And he thinks that that when to Tom Tom Dong actually wrote this book you know secret machines he talks about this Maynard consortium which is this international sort of corporation that controls the UFO issue. Ben Rich who was the director of Loheed Martin skunk works. He also talked about an international corporate board that controlled the UFO issue and he kind of lamented the fact that they had more control than he did and that you know than American domestic powers did. And so do you think Jason is is on to something? And and what's up with the World Commerce Corporation? So, you know, on the margins of Deep Tech Week, we were having some late night conversations and and this came up and we went into this in in some depth last night actually. These overlords have always used certain elites as viceroys and proxies to implement their policies and to sort of work on the the mundane nuts and bolts of managing the control system. And you know you see this going back to the Sumerian priest kings and the brahines of ancient India but then all the way up into the modern era with you know the Raj in India that we were discussing earlier the viceroy local Indians who helped the British effectively maintain colonial control over India. I interpret the world commerce corporation along those lines. In other words, it's a group of elites who were given access to um the type of technology that the overlords had, which is something not incidentally you see in Hindu scriptures where there are cases in which davas come down and they give certain Hindu kings control of like a couple of vimmanas and they're like, you know, you can only use this for this and that and whatever and like, you know, don't get too arrogant, but like here's a vammana for you to have a donation, right? And so when we look at Magenta in 1933, here's a craft that, you know, according to some accounts, had a Nordic body in it and was recovered initially by fascist Italy and then promptly handed over to Nazi Germany for reverse engineering. Now, if you're some benevolent Nordic, right, from like the Pletes and your material has crashed there, right, and you know it's going to fall into the hands of the most totalitarian regime on the planet who probably will figure out how it works because they've got the best physicists and engineers. Don't you think it might be a good idea to go retrieve that and that it would be within your capacity to do so? So, that looks an awful lot like a donation to me. Also, it's a rather dark fact of history that one year after Magenta, the Nazis created Leensborn. Labensborn was the Nazi eugenics program to basically develop a Nordicl looking master race. Okay? You know, most Germans aren't Nordic looking people. Like that's more Scandinavian thing. But for some reason the SS adopted this Nordic phenotype as its ideal and they created this insane eugenics program where like you know SS officer like like SS officers were allowed to have sex freely with like Nordic perfectl lookinging women you know who you know could sleep with as many SS officers as they wanted to produce as many you know beautiful blondhaired blue-eyed children as possible right who are put into these weird collective homes where you know lord knows what experiments were conducted on them and so forth. This all happens within a year of the recovery at magenta. Also within the same time frame the Germans established the ananab which was tasked with investigating the origins of the Aryan race in Atlantis or what they called thula which ultimately I think that they concluded was Antarctica. First they looked at Iceland, they looked at Greenland and then eventually I think by the time they they decided to field the Deutsche Antarctica expedition 1937 38 they had realized that you know um Thula Ultima Thula is Antarctica and Antarctica is essentially Atlantis. And so anyway, so you have this whole uh process take place and then there are reports that by 1944 at a facility outside Prague and I think it was put there because you know the the material was recovered by the Italians and the Italians also had competent scientists and the Germans didn't want to insult the Italians by just taking all this material into Nazi Germany. So they set up a joint program with a few Italian engineers in a facility in a in a third party country namely Czechlovakia and or or greater Czecha in the in the Reich. And uh there were reports that by 1944 they had developed both this sort of zero point energy uh propulsion device called DLOA or the bell and a functional saucer airframe which they were trying to marry together into a single operating system. Initially the saucer airframe was power was a jet powered craft >> and then they were trying to like replace that jet powered system with this electrogravidics system. And um Alan Dulles actually went and observed the functioning of this craft at that facility in 1944 before the war was over. Alan Dulles and his brother John Foster Dulles were working with uh John Rockefeller and a German by the name of Schroeder at a company in New York called uh something like uh Rockefeller Schroeder and Co. And at that time the Dulles brothers through that company were funding the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s together with JP Morgan also a major backer of Nazi Germany and Ford and other elites. And so there was a contingent of American corporatists, mostly based out of New York City, who initially funded the rise of Nazi Germany, and then in 1945 conspired to retrieve the hardware that was produced by these Nazi programs together with all the vital technical personnel uh and transplant them either back to the United States or to places that they had, you you know, within their sphere of control like Argentina. And Jason samosa, you know, gets good receipts on this transfer of uh intellect uh capability and material which involved elements of the OSS like Wild Bill Donovan, right? Um a lot of people are under the impression that, you know, the OSS transformed immediately into the CIA after the war. That's not the case. There was an attempt to shut down the OSS because Americans don't want to have a permanent intelligence service like that. It was created for wartime for a specific, you know, purpose. And, you know, it it's threatening to the US Constitution. So, they tried to shut down the OSS. And then the head of the OSS, well, Bill Donovan, takes his most important intelligence files and he brings them to a private office in what used to be the British security coordination um at 635th Avenue, the International Building of Rockefeller Center. This is the building behind the colossal sculpture of Atlas. And that building, by the way, also from their offices, which I believe were on the 35th floor, looks down onto the sculpture of Prometheus. So he moves all these files in there and then in short order Alan Dulles is working with him as a co-founder of this world commerce corporation and it's in the British the old British security coordination. So there's MI6 people involved too. People who, you know, wind up being, you know, part of the MI6 intelligence structure, including Ian Fleming, who goes on to write the Bond novels, and who I think fictionalized this World Commerce Corporation as Spectre in his Bond novels, this transnational crime syndicate mafia terroristic organization, right? Um, and you know, you have these like scar-faced villains in the in the Bond uh novels, which I think are references to real Nazis who were brought into this organization at a fundamental level. The most important of which was Otto Scorzani. So Otto Scorzani was the head of special operations and psychological warfare. Um, and and the the director of the most important commando raids uh during Nazi Germany. He's the guy who went and rescued Mussolini uh from the prison on the island of Panza that the allies had put him in toward the end of the war and came back and you know got a medal from Hitler and so on and so forth and he was Hitler's favorite commander and Scorzani by 1955 one decade after the founding of the World Commerce Corporation becomes the chairman of the corporation and is running this entity that controls 450 50 global subsidiaries. He's running this entity from out of a headquarters at Rockefeller Center in New York City. So I think this needs to be looked at in the context of what happened with reports of electrogravidics breakthroughs round about 1955 when Scorzani took over the World Commerce Corporation. As you know, you talked about in previous, you know, episodes of your your show, there were a flurry of articles in 1954 into 55 where executives of aeronautical engineering companies, what we would call aerospace today, were being quoted as saying they have solved electrogravitics or anti-gravity theoretically and that all all that's needed is funding for large-scale manufacturer and like the G engines are going to be rolled off the assembly line imminently. And then the whole thing goes dark. Well, is it really a coincidence that that happens at the same time Scorzani is taking over the World Commerce Corporation and it happens a decade after that breakthrough was made in Nazi Germany. Well, you can get even more specific, which is wild, that William Stevenson was working at that office in Rockefeller Center. He was Church Hill's super spy. uh he was Ian Fleming's inspiration for James Bond and he was in direct touch with Thomas Towns and Brown who claimed to have this sort of electrogravitic breakthrough of novel propulsion. They were in close coordination in fact so much so that uh at William Stevenson's behest Towns and Brown flew behind enemy lines in 1944 in Germany to interview some high voltage scientists because he was the only one with the expertise to do that. And there's a telegram between William Stevenson and Josephine Townsen's wife where he goes, you know, your husband is okay. He's been injured, but he's he's fine. Uh William Stevenson was also in touch with Charles Proteius Steinmets who was a GE uh engineer in Shencti, New York who was interested in kind of extended models of electronamics and very you know similar Tesla Towns and Brown adjacent kind of you know exotic breakthrough physics. So, and then one more layer to this. Um, Towns and Brown was literally saying, "Every time I have a breakthrough, this group in the Bahamas, this group of international industrialists, and he cites William Stevenson, and he says Eldidge Reeves Johnson, who's uh president of RCA Victor Machines Talking Company." Um, they they kind of suck up the tech. They suck up the IP. And and then and then the final layer to add to it is Robert Maxwell, you know, obviously, you know, Epstein's sort of you call it his father-in-law or whatever. Um he was in charge of uh interrogating Nazi scientists after World War II. He was for the MI6. So you have to wonder, is there some sort of connection between William Stevenson and Robert Maxwell? And why was there such an interest specifically in these exotic science modalities? >> Yes. And uh recently um there are some files that have emerged uh in reporting by a fellow named Sharp. Uh his first name might be Christopher, but I might be misremembering it. >> Christopher Sharp. >> Christopher Sharp. Yes. >> So there there's some files that have emerged that document the interrogation and American processing of Hans Kumler. M now general Hans Comler of the SS was the head of the SCOD works um and he was also Vervon Braun's boss. Von Braonn was a major who worked under General Comler in the SS. Com was presumed dead for all these decades. Comler was also, by the way, the architect of the concentration camps. So we're dealing with like the worst of the Nazis. Okay. He makes like Ron Braun look like a boy scout. And Comler was presumed dead, but now we've got these files that show no actually he got out of World War II alive and he was interrogated and processed by Americans and he seems to have been brought in outside the paperclip framework which was done for a number of other people as well including Yosef Mangala. I'm certain that Mangala was also brought in with CIA knowledge, but he was taken to Mexico because he was a little bit too hot to handle inside the continental United States. So Tomler was running the UFO reverse engineering program after the Magenta crash and he's brought in in 1945. So, you think it's a coincidence that by 1955 when our own American companies make the same technological breakthrough, they're all told to shut up and either cooperate or drop this effort. No, it's because there's a deeper black project that's being run by Nazis in the national security state that's been established by then, or what we might call the deep state. and they already have control of this effort and they're making let's say the CEO of Martin Aircraft to become eventually Loheed Martin play ball with them if if they want to have access to an already invented and developed technology right so I think that's what happened here and you know the disturbing implication of that is that if this is in fact the case we have to treat what has hitherto been called the legacy program as an intermediary very obuscating layer so that the so you know we have this >> so you think it's human technology essentially you think these UFOs are human technology that have their origin in Nazi Germany >> yes but to go back to what we were saying earlier >> but then you also >> magenta seems to be a donation >> and so it's as if as in the case of the Raj you know and these various uh you know stories in ancient Indian epics where davas share vimmanas with rajas with Hindu kings. Uh it's as if a new elite of managers was forged beginning in Nazi Germany and continuing through the world commerce corporation uh in order to basically act as viceroys for these overlords in the contemporary era. >> Very interesting. Well, I do think the magenta crash, which was in 1933, I think that saucer actually made its way to the Serat bunker, which is outside of Rome. And then I think the the SCOD works work was very real. And there's Victor Shawberger, who was recruited to work under Hans Conler, had plans for a flying saucer that you can all look up and see today. And you have a quote from Rudolph Shriber, who says, "We flew a flying saucer to 40,000 ft and it took a few seconds." There's a lot of documented, you know, Richard Meita, another engineer who had plans for a flying saucer. So, there's a lot of documentation around the Nazi program as well. And then we were speaking about this at dinner the other day. So, you have a lot of these people make their way to the United States. A lot of accounts of Richard Mita possibly working on the Avroar project under a actually British aircraft, a guy named John Frost. Yes. He also recruited this guy Henry Kanda for which the Kanda effect is named which you know gives these flying saucers their sort of signature wobble that a lot of people see. There's even a quote from you know so towns and brown formed NYAP which was you know the first civilian UFO research group and he said there are UFOs that are ours and UFOs that are theirs and this is in the ' 50s and he's telling his daughter this and he says the ones that are ours have this sort of wobble. He told Linda to filter out the ones where they describe a motion like a fluttering leaf and those are ours. He said >> what what does he mean a fluttering leaf >> wobble >> and so you know that's that's really interesting as well >> and they crash >> and they crash and you know what's what's fascinating is uh he is then funded by uh Agnu Bonson. Agnu Bonson is this air conditioning magnate but he's kind of eccentric and you know very intelligent as well. He founds the Institute of Field Physics which convened some of the top physicists in the world. Um you know Reer Fineman you know Freeman Dyson like name your top physicist at the time Peter Bergman. Um and the the main sort of physicist there convening everybody is Bryce Dwit. He's also fascinated by anti-gravity and he he really wants to figure it out and he funds towns and brown and we now know due to this Australian intelligence memo that he was probably like a CIA cutout. He was probably working directly with the CIA. He then goes on to write a science fiction book called The Stars Are Too High about American top scientists and engineers collaborating with Nazi top scientists on man-made disc saucer UFO crafts and them faking an alien invasion in order to sort of, you know, have sort of psychological effects on on the population at large. And then he dies in a bizarre plane crash. And his family, I believe, thinks to this day that there was foul play and that uh this sort of telephone line, which was never supposed to be there, was put up, you know, at the at the landing pad or whatever. I think I don't know if it was takeoff or landing, but that the the plane went right into it and it wasn't supposed to be there. Um, so very fascinating, albeit loose threads, but it's very interesting and it corroborates what you're saying. >> You know what else corroborates it? >> What? >> So you cited that statement from Townson Brown already in the 1950s to the effect that there are some that are man-made and there are ours, right? And they wobble a little bit. By the 1970s, Andrea Puharic is claiming that. Now, I mean, I don't know if he was exaggerating, but he certainly didn't sound like he was speculating. It sounded like he was speaking from inner program knowledge. He said, quote, 90% of UFOs that people have close encounters with are the US Flying Saucer Fleet. And he said, "They're staging half of the abductions." >> Whoa. And he also said, "The technology originated in Nazi Germany and it was brought here together with all those Nazis." >> Is this a quote? >> This is a quote. >> That's wild. It's wild because Puhar isn't some random guy. He was one of the earliest architects of MK Ultra. He had as deep of intelligence connections as as one could get. He also, if anybody knew how to fake an alien abduction, it was Puharic. He's on record faking. You know, my good friend uh Greg Malazzi has been on the show. He has done an amazing documentary on Puharic that is going to be coming out called Mind Traveler. And it depicts basically Puharic faking an alien abduction with Yuri Geller where he like spikes his drink, doses him up with something, and then he ends up like miles away and he was I think he gets thrown through a window or something. Wakes up a screen door. There you go. Yeah. And thinks that he's been taken by aliens. >> Yeah. One day he says to me, "Lukori, I want to hypnotize you. I want to go back and see where this power emanates from." And I agreed to be hypnotized. I cannot remember what happened while he hypnotized me. Um, he probably used one of these TD machines that he developed. These are psychotronic machines that can propagate information into a person's brain using extremely low frequencies. and uh a combination of that together with drugs to make Yuri Geller believe that he was basically teleported from Manhattan to Austining which is a suburb of New York City and through Puhar's screen door into his living room. Um and he did other things like for example um so I'm I'm writing a I just finished a book about Puharaj. I just did a whole like I don't know the manuscript comes to something like 250 pages. I don't know what it'll look like when it's published as a book, but it's the first comprehensive philosophical study of, you know, the work of Puharaj spanning his entire career. And so one of the other cases like this is that uh there was this guy Bob Beckwith who was a I I guess you say associate of Puharic collaborator and Beckwith goes to get some uh dental work done and the co-founder of Puhar's corporation the intellect corporation which was based in Midtown Manhattan the co-founder of the corporation is an skilled dentist Joseph Lawrence and this Bob Beck with goes to get some dental work done and all of a sudden he's having like alien abductions and hearing voices in his head and he comes and grabs Puhar's collar and he's like what the did you do to me man like you people planted something in my mouth and Puh is like no it must be the it must be the nine they must they must be interested in you you know >> what year is this >> uh this is in the 19 I think it's in the late 60s or early 70s >> that is wild. >> Yeah. And so there's more than one case indicating that Bharic knew how to fake an alien abduction. And then here he is saying half the abductions are being faked by the some entity within the United States power structure. >> It was probably earlier than the late 60s early 70s. Right. Because I think intellect was it was rated >> was founded in 1961. >> 61 the year of Betty and Barney Hill. >> Yeah. >> That's interesting. Yes. >> Um Whoa. because it was raided right um during the JFK assassination right after the JFK >> assassin it wasn't a raid some some men in black types came into the office and um spoke to Puharic like in his back room and the secretary noted that after they left Parharic was deeply disturbed for the rest of the day they didn't like take any any information or anything from out of there had a talk with him >> it's pretty insane though that like you know now we know that a lot of this Manurion candidate stuff that John Markx wrote about was is very real. And we, you know, you even have, if you read Tom O'Neal's chaos, documented interactions between Jolly West, who is, you know, one of the heads of MK Ultra, you know, corresponding with Sydney Gotautle, who is the the grand architect of the entire program, meeting with Jack Ruby, who basically destroyed evidence by killing Lee Harvey Oswald, who was supposedly this lone gunman, you know, in JFK's assassination. So, we know their MK Ultra ties to JFK's assassination. We don't know how deep they go, but we know at the very least it involves obstructing evidence in the form of Jolly West interacting with uh Jack Ruby, who then goes crazy after they spend 24 hours off camera with each other in Jack Ruby's uh jail cell. And Jack Ruby to that point hadn't remembered killing Lee Harvey Oswald. And then after that, he has a psychotic break. And Jolly West does a press conference outside the the jail and says, "Jack Ruby has had a psychotic break." So, it's >> I knew a guy who visited Jack Ruby in prison. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. >> What? Tell me more. >> Well, um, he had the impression that Ruby had been driven insane deliberately in prison. >> So, there you go. So, and you have evidence at least there, but it's even wilder that you have another architect of MK Ultra in the case of, you know, Andre Puharic who has a company called Intellect which is doing dental implants for mind control and then his office gets raided right after the assassination. That's very strange. >> Well, I think he had something to do with the World Commerce Corporation. >> Did he? >> I I think so. >> And what did he have to do with the world commerce? Another thing that Puhar uh said is and look before I wrote this whole book on puhar by the way the title of the book is intellectics >> because intellectron wasn't just the name of a corporation it was the name of a whole concept that puharich was developing as a as a sort of more complex and self-conscious form of psychotronics. Okay. So I called the book intel electronics and I don't know if it it probably will be out by the time this uh podcast is released or shortly thereafter. In any case, before I wrote that whole book length study of Bharaj, I wrote this essay called projecting Prometheus which deals with Puhar and MK Ultra. And that's a subject I come back to in the book on Puharaj. But in that essay um specifically I talk about you know the origins of MK Ultra and how it's always associated with uh Sydney Gotautleb and and Ean Cameron and you know these various >> doctors who used known techniques like LSD administration, electroshock therapy and so forth for behavior modification and uh engineering of dissociation. Right. And the parasychology aspect of MK Ultra is never discussed. But in fact, if you dig into it, you realize that that was the core of the program >> and that probably Puharic was much more important than Eden Sydney got >> and what Puharic says. So Puharic was working at Edgewood Arsenal in you know 1950. He he had been studying philosophy during uh World War II and then when World War II broke out he was like well you know people are dying all over the place I should do something more practical with my life than studying philos but it shows the inclination his inclination was to become a philosopher and you can see this throughout his career reemerging and so he becomes a medical doctor and then he's recruited into the you know into the army uh special medical program uh at Edgewood wood arsenal where they're developing biological and chemical weapons among other things. And uh round about that time 1952 is when it's documented that the precursor of MK Ultra namely Bluebird begins. Puharaj says that the reason he was brought in is because all these Nazis were doing these experiments and the government needed to cultivate Americans to eventually replace the Nazis who they had brought over from Germany to do these mind control you know experiments uh and development of techniques and technologies and so forth. So the the founding generation of you know Bluebird and Artichoke and MK Ultra were the transplanted Nazis. >> It is it is also just so fascinating that if you go to Betty and Barney Hills regression the first thing that Barney says is he looks like a Nazi >> and the evil face on the he looks like a Nazi. the evil face of that Nazi. He looks like a Nazi. >> He looks like a Nazi. It's so strange. And then you get into these kind of ontological questions of like, okay, so you have MK Ultra, you have gravity manipulation, anti-gravity propulsion sort of research, you have directed energy, you have ways to explain away all these sort of transcendent sort of things, you know, all these UFO experiences and encounters and close encounters of the third kind. And then I always land on Yes. And you know, I think it's it's both. I think some >> experiences are truly just transcendent and involve you know, real beings. And I don't think those are easily, you know, ex you can't explain them away through covert military technology. But what what do you think? >> I agree with you entirely. >> It's both. M but again to go back to to you know the point I was trying to make earlier the more mundane prosaic programs being run by elites seem to be on some level endorsed by the control system that's fielding the actual close encounters. That's what it feels like. A lot of these guys that get into really exotic science bump into a layer above them. >> Yeah. Like there's almost like science is being disseminated from a place of complete reality manipulation. >> Y >> but like it's like being dripfed or something. And that's where you get into the sort some of the missing scientist stuff. And it's like do I think there's been a statistical speed up of science suppression? I don't know. Do I think there's been science suppression over the last 100 200 years? For sure. Obviously. And then some of these cases in isolation, you know, I just had Michael Shurmer on and he was like, "There's nothing weird about the disappearance of General Neil McCassen." I'm like, >> "In isolation, that story is completely significant." >> No, I don't. It's just totally random. >> What do you mean? He he a gun was missing and and his wife his wife said he was suffering from depression for years. >> His wife also said the only explanation might be that an alien took took him on the mother ship. Why would she joke about her missing husband a week later? That's weird. because of all the weird conspiracy theories around it. You were very generous with him. >> I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah, it was crazy. I was like, this guy was on, you know. Yeah, it was probably too nice, you know, uh uh he was in charge of the special access program oversight committee. He's literally uh you know, in charge of over 2,000 special access programs. And he's saying that it's it's the job of the local authorities to look into it. No, it's the job of the FBI and every intel agency we have. It's all hands- on deck. What are you talking about? That's insane. Um, cases like that or Carl Gilmare who was one of a few people with access to the Ver Ver Rubin Observatory first access um, which detects changes in, you know, the astronomical record. So if you think of James Webb as having you know the strongest resolution within a narrow scope, Ver Rubin is the first to detect anything entering our solar system. And all of this stuff has to get screened by the DoD or now Department of War before uh you know ever being released to the public. and he gets you know uh uh hor horrifically killed along with um Nuno Lorero who is uh probably foremost in the field for uh you know magnetic reconnection. So uh you know nuclear fusion is this big holy grail. You know, you could make the earth way more sustainable and unlock all sorts of new technologies, but you have this magnetic you have this leakage that occurs with these tokamac uh you know uh magnetic confinement uh uh fusion abilities. And he was the person who was deepest on the actual confinement of you know the the fusion in order to make it work. And he gets killed in such a you know bizarre sort of way. and it was by somebody who had held a long-standing grudge with him. But then if you think about these sort of you know manurian candidate possibilities it's like anything's on the table. So what yeah what do you think about historical science suppression? Do you think why does if there is some control system? Why do they let certain things go and why do they suppress other things? >> This is exactly where I wanted to go. So I think these donations are disempowering. I think that they take place when humanity is on the verge of figuring something out for itself and they get ahead of that and they control the dissemination of it. So for example, if you look at the late 19th century into the early years of the 20th century, Nicola Tesla and probably others were developing what could have become an alternate physics paradigm from out of the extended Maxwell equations that were truncated by Heavyside and canonized in our physics textbooks. And this type of alternate physics involves concepts like scalar waves that propagate information and can release electromagnetic energy at a great distance but without um transverse herzian waves being involved in that propagation. They propagate information for the distant release of electromagnetic energy in a kind of longitudinal wave that's similar to how a sound wave works rather than a you know a transverse wave. And these waves can also go through the earth because it seems like what they're reaching through before they let's say you have two Tesla transmitting towers that are you know calibrated to converge on a distant target. um they can apparently penetrate the earth because actually they appear to be reaching through something like what David Bow conceptualized as the implicate order a kind of subquantum matrix of pure scalar potential a kind offormational matrix that can be coded and and and tuned with like extremely low frequencies and so one of the things the most fascinating things that I discovered in the course of researching puhar for this book into electronics is that the reason his house was burned down his house and and lab in Austining lab 9 was burned down didn't have to do with his albeit very controversial work with psychic children this the space kids as he called them. It was because Puharic had figured out Tesla technology like really figured it out. >> Really? >> Yes. And >> where's the evidence for that? That's insane. Okay, so let's get into this story a little bit. Right >> before we dive into this wild episode, I want to give a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, Dose. Dose for your liver is a high quality liquid supplement designed to support healthy liver function. It's super easy to incorporate into your routine. It's just a 2 oz shot once a day and it tastes like orange juice. As you know, I love nerding out and finding the best new health and wellness products. And it's surprisingly easy to overlook the biggest internal organ in your body, the liver. Your liver performs over 500 functions every single day. It plays a major role in how your body processes nutrients and supports digestion, energy, and metabolism. What I appreciate most about dose is that they actually have research behind it. two double blind placeboc controlled studies showing a positive impact on liver enzyme levels. Having research like that is something I really appreciate and find refreshing in the supplement space and no pills you have to swallow or icky taste. Again, just a convenient daily little shot that tastes like tangy orange juice. Ready to give your liver the support it deserves? Head to dosedaily.co/jessie co/jessie or enter jesse to get 35% off your first subscription. Your body does so much for you. Let's do something for it. That's dosedaily.co/jes for 35% off your first month's subscription. Try it for 3 months and see how you feel. I want to thank dose so much for sponsoring the show. Now, back to today's episode. Lab 9 was burned down didn't have to do with his albeit very controversial work with psychic children, the space kids as he called them. It was because Puharic had figured out Tesla technology like really figured it out. >> Really? >> Yes. And >> where's the evidence for that? That's insane. >> Okay, so let's get into the story a little bit. Right. So in 1976, first of all, Puharic knew this guy uh John um John O'Neal who had had known Tesla and had written a an early biography of Tesla. He he knew this guy personally from early in his career and he spent decades studying Tesla on the side of everything else. Puharic did as an engineer, as somebody who, you know, developed these TD devices and so forth. So he spends decades studying Tesla and then in 1976 he notices cuz he's working with all these machines that involve extremely low frequency. He notices that there is a signal coming into the continental United States on a trajectory that he believes means it's emanating from the Soviet Union. And in particular, he's able somehow to trace these scalar waves back to their point of origin um at Ria in I believe it's Latvia and uh Gomel in Bellarus which were then both part of the Soviet Union. and he starts researching this and he comes to the conclusion that the Soviet Union has constructed nine Tesla towers. You know that the tower that Tesla developed a prototype for at Colorado Springs and then he built one that was meant to be operational at Warden Cliff on Long Island and then JP Morgan screwed him and the tower got demolished and so forth. This is not incidental at all because JP Morgan wound up becoming one of the financial backers of rise of Nazi Germany and one of the contributors to eventually a generation later the founding of the World Commerce Corporation. Okay. >> And I believe he also at the end of his life colluded with Russia. >> Yes. And and also I've done other research if you want to read about this. It's in my book um Oult Horizons which is a collection of essays. I did other research that shows JP Morgan was involved in in in engineering the the sinking of the Titanic and the murder of all those people in the middle of the Atlantic. Seriously, >> that that was done on purpose. >> You think so? >> Yes. Yes. Why? >> Uh there were multiple reasons. >> Rivals with the multiple reason. >> Yes. Okay. John Jacob Aster who died that night. >> Yeah. >> Had decided to fund and back Tesla. He after Morgan screwed Tesla. >> Is this true? >> Yes. This is 100% true. >> This is the most insane thing ever. Really? >> Okay. John Jacob had decided to come in as the angel investor to save Tesla from the ruin that Morgan was trying to put him in. And in in particular, what Aster was interested in was the electrogravidics wingless propulsion application of world wireless. >> Is there documentation of this? >> There is. You can look into it. >> That's where where can we look? So um look look at my essay uh called Titanic Histori. >> Okay. >> In the book Occult Horizons. Okay. >> The reason I called it that Titanic Histori. >> Yeah. >> Is because >> now I don't want to go on a whole derail from what we were talking about Puhar and Tesla Towers and all that but long story short. Okay. What I discovered was that there was a precursor to the OSS that was a corporate crime syndicy intelligence service nominally working for the United States at least constituted largely by Americans and it was based in the hotel Atoria the the Aster hotel in New York City. >> Okay, which was demolished uh to build the um Empire State Building. And >> what was the intelligence organization called? >> It it didn't have a name, which is why I call it the Atoria group. >> Do you know who it involved? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All the corporate who's who of that time. Okay. >> Like uh I list about like 12 or 14 names of of key people who were involved. Haramman was involved. You know, the railroad magnet Haramman. um this guy who >> Haramman also you know was of Brown Brothers Haramman yes fame which basically turned into the CIA. >> Yes. And you know the Aster now and um Aster's cousin was also part of this group. >> Uhhuh. the guy who founded the um Aster Hotel >> and he had an axe to grind against his against John Jacob Aster and they had a serious enmity and so I think he conspired together with Morgan and Haramman and these others to kill John Jacob Aster aboard the Titanic. Uh but they also used it as insurance fraud because what what Morgan did was he swapped the Titanic and the Olympic. the the um Olympic was an aging ocean liner which had to be retired anyway. It had like run its course as a serviceable liner and the Titanic was a new relatively new sister ship which was not identical but very close in structure to the Olympic. So Morgan runs the company that, you know, is is uh, you know, basically sailing these um these liners, right? And so he has a a crew the they keep the ships in dock for some inexplicable period of time without being used. And he has a crew go in and make the Olympic look like the Titanic and change all the signage on the Titanic and make it look like the Olympic. And then they sailed the Olympic as the Titanic. And the Olympic was an old vessel to begin with. So it like was not in perfect operating condition. And the Titanic was made to sail faster, sail harder. So the people sailing the ship like were, you know, instructed to sail it to the specifications at at the capacities that Titanic was supposed to be fitted for. And there's also indication that it was kind of deliberately driven into an iceberg. >> Really? >> Yes. And so point being, it allowed him to carry out insurance fraud because he he claimed the insurance money on what was actually the Olympic. >> JP Morgan did >> JP Morgan did. It was a huge insurance fraud. And um so they sank this old ship that had to be retired anyway. And the thing that sailed for years after that as the Olympic was the real Titanic. So anyway, how how did we get into this whole thing? Tesla. Yes. Aster. Yeah. Right. So, poor Aster, who was a very interesting character, by the way, he wrote some whole sci-fi novel. >> Wow. >> About like um you know, higher intelligences and other worlds in the cosmos. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. He was a very visionary, romantic guy. And eventually Tesla, I think, was able to prevail over that side of him to convince him to basically, you know, lift Tesla up from out of the ruin that Morgan was trying to put him in. Okay. short-lived uh endeavor. So, but the point is this that Tesla developed this whole physics and Puhar spent decades studying it. Then he realizes in 1976 that the Soviets are using these Tesla towers. All right. What I was saying is this is that he figures out that the Soviets have built I think I think the number was nine which is staggering of these Tesla towers of the kind that Nicola Tesla himself had constructed at Colorado Springs and Warden Cliff but he they built them all underground. So most people have the impression which I think has been deliberately promulgated that the Tesla towers are broadcasting electricity because you know lightning bolts come out of the top of Tesla coils. And so this impression has been conveyed that a Tesla tower was supposed to wirelessly broadcast electricity like up to the ionosphere and then devices like even light bulbs would pick this up wirelessly from out of the ionosphere as like some kind of ambiently radiating electricity. That's not the case at all. And Puar figured that out. Like what's actually going on with a Tesla tower is that the bottom third third or fourth of it which has a rod that's driven down into the earth into the bedrock is propagating a scalar wave through the earth. It's a scalar wave generating device. And if you set if you set up two of these and you cause their scalar waves to interfere to be slightly out of phase with each other but to interfere at a distant target location, you can tune it so that information is conveyed through the vacuum or through the quantum potential field to then release electromagnetic energy at the target location. And specifically, Pohar um realized that there's a 45mi radius for the generation of this electromagnetic energy at the target location for interfering scalar waves. And he was uh monitoring this woodpecker signal from the Soviet Tesla towers through 1976 and noticing an intensification in a certain geographical area. Then on July 13th, 1977, the power lines and power stations in New York City and the greater New York City area fried from the bottom up. And the power companies lied about this. They said it was hit by lightning from above. But people who witnessed it said it was like electricity was coming out from the earth and up these towers and frying them. Okay? And also people saw when the lights went out, people saw this weird auroral like glow briefly form over the greater New York area. >> What was the conventional explanation? >> That a electric storm, you know, fried the power grid and and and overcharged it. And >> was there a storm at the time? there was uh like ambient electricity and and lightning in various areas but which would also be a result of releasing electromagnetic energy at the end of interfering scalar waves. >> Was the weather also bad or was it just fine? >> No, it was like a weird coalescing of like of electrical energy >> pretty suddenly >> and within a 45 mile radius which is what he had calculated as the the radius for for this kind of effect. What year is this? >> It's July 13th to 14th, 1977. Okay. >> So, Puharic comes to this conclusion, right? >> And he's deeply disturbed by this because he's like, "Okay, well, this is not theoretical anymore. Now, one of the superpowers is starting to operationally use this Tesla scalar technology as a weapon. >> Why wouldn't they just use that to win the Cold War?" >> Okay. So, then Puhar says, >> "Dude, in DC, >> get this. Get this." So then Puhar says that and this is in an interview later in the in I think it's 1984. >> Okay. When so so let me let me come back to this 1984 cuz I want to show you like why did he start having such loose lips by the mid 1980s and admitting things that are going to you know get the government very pissed off. Right? So 1977 July 77 this blackout and he starts researching it intensively and he develops a manuscript called Tesla's magnifying transmitter and the manuscript goes into detail about the scalar physics that came from out of Tesla based on Maxwell's equations and so forth and um how u Tesla towers work to produce scalar waves and he connects it by the end of the manuscript to the blackout out and he says this is this was used as a weapon and you know this has gotten out of hand and it's threatening the existence of humanity on a planetary scale and we could have the the weaponization of geohysical effects. We could have man-made natural catastrophes >> from earthquakes to weather manipulation to produce hurricanes and typhoons and so forth. and you know the the powers that be whether it's the Soviet Union or our own government the United States maybe he projects China in the near future don't have the requisite ethics or moral sensibility to be handling this kind of technology and really this needs to be revealed at the United Nations and the planet is in peril and so on so forth >> is that paper public that he wrote >> so let me let me explain so he writes this manuscript >> he starts to try to get a publishing deal for this manuscript I if it was with Dell and it's it starts going through the editorial process and all this the editor all of a sudden so it it's scheduled for publication I think most of the editing was done the editor all of a sudden gets extremely ill and he says we have to put the project on hold you know I'm debilitated I can't work on it and after a While Puhar kind of like consults with him again, well, how you doing? Like, can we resume this project? He goes, no, I think like anytime I start this project again, I might get really ill and they abandon publication of it at Dell. Puhar doesn't give up. He keeps trying to get a new publisher for this manuscript. He takes this. So, Puharic was doing work in Mexico um with this um shaman called Pashita which he had developed a relationship with in the 1950s back when he was doing the you know tests with psilocybin and Amanita Moscaria right so he he tended to go back to me Mexico and check on you know his Mexican and shaman associates and so forth and he happened to be on a trip to Mexico in August of 1978 so about a year later almost exactly you know 13 months after the blackout and after he's already written this book Tesla's magnifying transmitter. He's in Mexico and he gets a call saying, "Your house has burned down in Austining." And what's worse is that most of the space kids were in there. And so the subsequent fire department investigation, >> explain who the space kids are for the >> Yeah. So the space kids were um Now, we could go into a whole thing just on this cuz I found weird things involving this that aren't part of the the public record. to the extent there's even a public account of this. I found other things that undermine that. But supposedly the story is like like what we've heard from Greg Greg Malazzi um in his film Mind Traveler. The story is that when Puharic was taking Yuri Geller around as some kind of a circus handler, right? Getting him all kinds of speaking engagements and television appearances. and Yuri Geller's abilities to bend metal and perform other psychic feats was being widely broadcasted. There were a bunch of young people all over the place who upon watching Geller perform these feats on television suddenly developed these abilities themselves and like concerned parents were were getting a hold of Puharic is saying my kid is bending spoons like what the hell did you do? He watched this Geller character and now he's like, you know, levitating forks like what what is this? You know, and so then Puhares kind of goes, this is insane. He kind of goes doortodoor to these families. And the thing is he was an incredibly charismatic person. Like if you if you look at recordings of him and and see how he speaks, not just how he writes, but how he speaks and his demeanor, he was an incredibly charismatic person, very genial. And he convinced some of these parents to basically let him study their kids. And he starts to like congregate these kids like feral cats inside his home. And Austin later, by the way, he became like a cat lady. Poor like literally became like his house was like full of cats, stray cats. Anyway, so he he he corrals these psychic kids, gellerlings as they called them, into the lab 9 that he set up at his home in Austining, suburb of New York City. He would commute from there to the intellect office in Midtown. But he can't bring the kids to the intellect office cuz this is shady stuff. You're experimenting on children. >> It was called Lab 9. >> Lab 9. Yeah. >> It's kind of weird. It was called Lab 9 and they were in touch with what they called the Nine. >> Well, that's why you called it Lab 9. >> Okay. named after the nine, >> then that's less weird. >> These supposedly discarnate space intelligences >> who for some reason need a bunch of kids to tell them what's going on inside the Kremlin. >> Right. Right. >> This is ridiculous. But I mean, these were kids. They didn't question him, you know? Right. >> So, so anyway, >> so wait, but what do you think then? So, okay. So, he's recruiting all these telepathic highinetic telepathic gifted kids. >> It's like a real life X-Men or something. >> That's exactly what it said. He's Professor X in the Manor House. >> There you go. Yeah. So, it's this wild story. And then where I never get clarity from people who are extremely deep on him, you know, and I think for example, when I speak to Greg, I think he's being very intellectually honest where it's very hard to say whether Puharic believes in alien beings and non-human intelligence or whether it's some cynical just he knows the parasychology stuff is real, but it's really just this intelligence gathering sort of effort. It is complicated. I that you know after having studied him deeply enough to to write a book about it >> definitely he was using the nine as some kind of an egregoric tulpa construct to psychotronically manipulate gifted psychics to carry out intelligence operations. There's no question about that. M but does that mean that he thought it was total and that you know he that there was nothing on the other side of it that he was engaging with? That's not so clear at all because especially late in his life, Puhar himself claims he starts to get messages from these entities and he kind of in a somewhat insane way, frankly, reorganizes his life around it around these like cosmic clock messages he gets on this like Tesla watch that he developed supposedly also from out of Tesla's patents. >> Okay. So, he ended up a believer. >> Yeah. And did he drink his own Kool-Aid? I mean, that's a possibility, too. Well, all all so many of these stories are like you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss stares back or something. You know, you read >> Diana Pulka's great book, American Cosmic, and the first half is like this is a a scop built up in a Hollywood studio and then the second half is like I've fallen in and I know, you know, and it's it's my own story, too. I like sort of, you know, >> got completely, you know, redpilled on this stuff by Jacqu Valet, how put off, people like that where, you know, before that I was like, "This guy has to be a joke." Yeah. >> You know, so he has all these space kids and they're channeling the nine and they're doing intelligence gathering stuff and he >> maybe initially is somewhat >> skeptical and invol you know there's some psychic there's some manipulation >> but eventually he sort of turns into a believer >> and then he's also doing all of this research on ones scal waves as weapons as weapons. That's so so I think it was like um August 8th or 9th something like that 1978 he's in Mexico and he gets this call that you know your house has been burned down and the fire department investigation which was thorough determined that the arsonists had approached the property from two directions with a clear intent to trap all the people inside to start the fire in a way where there would be no escape from the house and the space kids are in there. And so they wanted to murder these people. >> Jesus Christ. >> And and blame it on Puharic. Like basically be like this guy like first of all these children shouldn't be in his house. Second of all, they all just got emilated, right? Fortunately, um a couple of the space kids came back to the house early. Like they had gone out to do something and they came back unexpectedly early. uh just as the fires had started and they were able to get everyone everyone out alive. Okay. But the house burned down and so Puharic um was convinced that this was the CIA who did this to him and he he becomes increasingly hostile to the US government after that. And this is why to go back to you know what I started on earlier by 1984 when he's giving lectures here and there he lets a lot of things slip in a way that you know compromises national security. And one of the things he says that answers your question earlier is like why didn't the Soviets just use this against us is well first of all I mean we we had a lot of nuclear weapons. So if we realized they were using scalar weapons against us on a large scale, that would have triggered a nuclear war, which is one reason the US government might not want to tell the American public that New York City at least suffered a test of a scalar capability during that blackout. Okay? Because you you don't want to drum up the public into a fervor for nuclear war with the Soviets. But the other reason is that Puhar let slip in this lecture in I think 1984. He says, "Oh yeah, and you know, we started building them ourselves." And he says, "We built one in Alaska, United States, one in South Africa." >> Since 1976, the US has built one broadcast tower in South Africa here. And there's one in Alice Springs, Australia, and one is I don't know where this one's operational yet. One is in the Antarctic in the McMmero Sound area. So we bu that's one of the reasons for the US relationship with the apartheid government of South Africa is that that geographical location was ideal for triangulation in the Soviet Union. Okay, rather than building another one within the continental United States, they wanted one in South Africa. And then he goes and now they're built and now 1984 and now they're building a third one in Antarctica. >> No way. >> And then he stops himself. Then he like realizes like I'm saying that I shouldn't be saying and he cuts himself off. And this is all on record. >> 1984. It's on video. >> Find it on YouTube. >> That is crazy. >> And now we're building one in Antarctica. >> Yeah. And then you have, you know, whistleblowers coming out of Antarctica saying that we have Eric Hecker. Yeah. Neutrino detectors and emitters and stuff >> causing earthquakes >> like the New Zealand. >> Christ Church earthquake. Exactly. >> Wow. >> Which is what Puharic was worried about. And so Puharic by the early 1980s was going around with Buckminister Fuller and trying to get the United Nations to recognize that this technology exists and that it's apparel to humanity. >> Whoa. That is wild. So trippy. So and do we have that paper that he tried to get submitted? >> Oh, yeah. I I use it in my book on I cite it repeatedly. I cite passages from out of it. >> I would love to read that. That is so >> I'll send it over to you. You can find PDFs of it floating around on the internet. Um there the one that I got was through a a Yugoslavian sort of Tesla society. >> It's wild that he was writing and talking about this in the late '7s, early 80s because Thomas Bearden was this Navy guy who was also talking about, you know, these mega death weapons from the Soviets. They work together. >> That's fascinating because he's talking about scalar weaponry coming out of the, you know, the Soviet Union. Barden and Puharic were they were friends essentially and they cite each other. So, and this is a whole other interesting story. I I did a whole series on Tom Bearden in my Substack uh called Psychotronic Excalibur. It's on my Substack. It's like six parts or something like that. And it's an exigesis of this book that Bearden wrote called the Excalibur Briefing. Now, get this is some crazy So Bearden starts writing this book at exactly the same time Bhar starts writing Tesla's magnifying transmitter. They're writing the manuscripts in parallel. Listen to what happens to the the Excalibur briefing. Bearden finishes this book and he submits it to a the publisher and um arsonists and like like pe you know henchmen show up to the publisher and set a fire and smash all the printing presses that were supposed to run the plates for this book. And I forget what happened. Some kind of harm actually also comes to the the publisher himself. I forget how he's manhandled. And so then the publisher hires a security firm because he's determined now. He's pissed off to guard the printing press. And I think they had to set up a different press. And actually the the book that comes out of is kind of shitty because it didn't use the professional printing process cuz it had been destroyed by these, you know, saboturs. So they get the book out under like literally a security cordon. And this book is impossible to get your hands on. You have to you the copies cost like three 400. It's one of these books is like way out of print. 400 bucks to get a hold of a copy. And the whole thing is about how scalar wave propagating technology like Tesla towers are actually psychotronic devices and that it's not just about conveying electromagnetic energy at a distance. These things tune quantum potential in a way that can produce apparitions and that can propagate thoughts telepathically into people's minds. >> Whoa. >> Okay. So, here we get into what psychotronics really is. is that Tom Bearden and Andrea Puharic had figured out that uh manipulation of information exchange in a non-local way is a science that has technological applications. So that in principle and this goes back to the beginning of our conversation about the soul as an information energetic matrix or what Bharaj called he he called it a nuclear plasma not because it had anything to do with uranium or plutonium but because it has a nucleus what he called a mobile center of consciousness and it's like a plasma in other words he took the idea of a a protoplasm the undifferi protoplasm and ectoplasm and he he develops this term of nuclear plasma from out of it and so he thinks this nuclear nuclear plasma can be manipulated and information can be exchanged between these nuclear plasmas through extremely low frequency scalar wave propagation and that machines can be built for this purpose and that this is the great discovery of Nicola Tesla that's been hidden so that Tesla was involved in magic in a way actually and that's what's been hidden and so what this does is it and why I decided to write that book is because it practically dynamites the dichotomy between mind and matter or the spiritual and the physical in exactly the way that I was trying to do from my first book Prometheus and Atlas with my proposal for a spectral revolution. Right. >> Well, yeah. It's it's it's almost like a causal carrier wave mechanism for consciousness. It's fascinating because um you know we're now talking about extended electronamics. these sort of models that yeah involve you know a more faithful adherence to Maxwell's original equations where the Lorren gauge isn't you know automatically set to zero. So the the square of the vector and scalar potentials added up doesn't necessarily equal zero and so you can have uh you know the existence of vector and scalar potentials without a traditional electromagnetic wave and then maybe even actually manipulate those vector and scalar potentials. And um we were having a wild conversation last night with um Stuart Hammerov and Hal Putoff about this. And Stuart Hammerov of course is a collaborator of Roger Penrose his ideas of of of consciousness and um and how put off was asking him to do the microtubules form a Josephson junction which is essentially a quantum receiver which would be able to pick up these sort of you know vector and scalar potentials. So, it'd be wild if we found a carrier wave for for consciousness, you know. Um, Ingoing Swan was able to and all these, you know, telepathic people are able to somehow affect things through, you know, hard shielding and things that would cut off electromagnetic waves. And so, you know, I think if people who are at the forefront of all these programs are openly speculating that it's this exotic offshoot of electromagnetism, that's it's very interesting. And then I suspect that there's something still far more fundamental about consciousness. Maybe thoughts maybe maybe semantic thought or you know maybe there maybe there's something around that and then consciousness itself feels way deeper than just scalar physics or something but well you know so okay so first of all first discovered that there may be a manipulable carrier wave for ESP and potential production of PK back in the 1950s when he was doing tests with Faraday cages at the Roundtable Foundation >> where his initial hypothesis uh I believe it was in Mer Maryland or Maine I uh that you know >> the round table was in Maine >> Maine Maine in Maine where he had been funded by by you know intelligence um apparatuses naval intelligence CIA to set up this roundt foundation in the early 50s and he initially hypothesized that if you put a psychic inside of a Faraday cave age they'll do poorly because you know it was naively assumed that maybe there's some kind of electromagnetic wave that's propagating information in in ESP but he found that actually they do much better inside the Faraday cage and then he started testing like okay well what is it that can penetrate a Faraday cage and this was the beginning of his work on scalar waves and extremely low frequency modulation and so the so okay the other thing that Puhares discovered about the blackout in July of 1977 7 was that the scalar waves coming from uh Rian Gomel in the Soviet Union were being modulated with an extremely low frequency at a rate of um 10 or 11 like 11 hertz. And the the the normal like um human baseline for a frequency of well-being that's in tune with the Schuman resonance is 8 hertz. And if you take it up to 10 or 11 hertz, people get extremely agitated and violent. And if you bring it down to like six hertz, people get really depressed and debilitated and nauseous and disoriented. And so the Soviets were broadcasting at 10 or 11 hertz. And this was agitating people into this mass rioting and arson that took place. I mean, it was like apocalyptic for 24 hours or so. And um so so the thing is it looks like there is a carrier wave for sigh that can be technologically manipulated. Now consciousness is a question of self reflection because look plants are capable of sigh. Cleave Baxter found this by the way he worked with Puar. wherein Baxter were working. This guy was connected to everybody, >> you know, he was connected to Dr. Putoff. >> Yeah. >> So, and >> and he met with >> Go Swan to SRRI >> and Puhar met with Towns and Brown, too. >> Yeah. What would be one of the kind of most your first used use cases of MK Ultra or mind control? It would be around secret technology be around technology that you really wouldn't want to let let out. And if you if you can do the Manurion candidate stuff and create splits between people, which >> they definitely can do. You know, there were these way there were these like trigger words. Yep. You know, where you'd have couriers, spies or whatever that would go, you know, you'd say the word and then they'd split and their altar would come out or something. >> Then why wouldn't you do that with um secret technology? >> Yeah. And I believe Bob Lazar even met with a hypnotist in Vegas after his experience and the hypnotist said he had clearly gone through some sort of you know intense hypnotic stuff like you know mind control stuff and to me that doesn't necessarily take away from his testimony which you know it's kind of hard to argue he was at least at S4 Area 51 and you know there's a great movie that my buddy Luigi just just made on that everyone should check out But um yeah, like maybe you'd use it to keep the technology secret >> for sure. So he was extremely well positioned and and therefore we have to take a lot of the statements he's making as fact, not speculation. And so but the thing is about consciousness, right? Plants have ESP. They have incredibly strong ESP. Cleaxer demonstrated this in the laboratory in 1970s and plants are certainly not conscious. They're sentient. So sigh is a property of sentience not of consciousness. Okay. And that property can be technologically manipulated. >> That doesn't mean consciousness is reducible to something quasi mechanical. Well, does but no. So I love this, but this brings up all sorts of weird epistemic questions of cognitive sovereignty. And just like you have the hard problem of consciousness with David Chalmer's where it's like >> you can't prove that I'm not a Pz zombie. I can't prove you're not a Pz zombie. You know that we're not AI constructs or whatever. In this paradigm you get into you can't prove that I'm not mind controlled cyborg. I can't prove you're not a mindcrolled cyborg. >> That's where consciousness comes in. Okay. And and that's so Hegel Garrick Hegel was right to believe that consciousness is a dialectical developmental process of everinccreasing self-awareness and self-transparency >> and and reflectiveness, right? And so the more unconscious a person or a society is, the more easily they're manipulated, including psychotronically, >> right? And you know, we can see from the some very adept psychics like Ted Cerios or Ted Owens >> that it doesn't correlate to self-reflectiveness very much at all. In fact, it might kind of be a negative correlation, right? And so developing sighability or having sibility activated in you by some kind of a psychotronic machine is not the same thing as elevating your consciousness. Right? And so you could be a very conscious person and not have much sability or you could be a you know a sigh adept and be very unconscious. Right? And so I think that you know the main point of the book I wrote on puhar intellectronics is to tease out what he meant by this term namely that because psychotronic technologies of the kind he was responsible for developing pose such a serious threat to human agency it's of paramount important for us to develop our intellect to where we have greater self-consciousness and capacity for self-reflection >> because otherwise we're going to destroy ourselves with this technology. ology. >> So then if you get into sort of you know if there's some higher sort of cosmic war timeline war or something and this idea you presented earlier of um some of these donations these gifts given around technology uh actually being bad or or causing detours or meaning to you know the intention being that you know uh humanity is going to be sort of clamped down upon >> preempt and co-opt what would have been organic technological developments. >> Yeah. So, so, so, so what do you what do you mean by that? And I knew one example is I just had, you know, um this kid Deep Prasad on who's, you know, really smart quantum computing guy and >> I've met him. >> Okay, nice. And we were talking um and he he mentioned you know he was like fiber optics uh you know integrated circuits you know lasers think about all the things that have led to modern computing. If you take the Philip J Corso narrative at face value that that was transferred from you know alien derived material integrated circuits lasers and fiber optics those are the only three things you need to build a data center today that's it so I almost feel like our uh AI breakthroughs and stuff was like a like a Trojan horse from aliens potentially. >> Yeah it's >> You think it's It's And this goes back to one of our earlier >> disagreements is that >> I think there's a lot of evidence and and Puharic would agree with this. Yeah. >> There's a lot of evidence that the craft that came down in Roswell, specifically Roswell, not like, you know, the Trinity crash, not Aztec, you know, but Roswell in particular, was a Nazi craft. And the stuff that was recovered from it, laser, something like early fiber optics, velcro, kevlar, were all state-of-the-art technologies that were being developed toward the end of World War II in Nazi Germany. >> So what what explains Corso's behavior? Why would Corso come out and say, you know, I swear to God, I was on this, you know, for foreign technology desk for the Pentagon and I was to to do >> it's foreign technology. >> So that's it. That's it. It's just and and then >> you need the alien cover story. So he he was explicitly doing that as a cover even though his son now will say you know I think his father >> he he could also have been scoped >> into into promulgating that cover story but I think the cover story was necessary and I think the cover story is also behind the initial Roswell press release like why would you even do that that whole the initial saucer crash story right >> I think they promulgate the government itself promulgated this alien narrative and then covered it up to further legitimize it >> so what what was that Nazi experimental craft. Then >> could see the thing is though, >> the Horton flying wing. >> Yes. Yes. And and the thing is you have to hide that because that's worse than maybe aliens crashing. >> That's kind of what Annie Jacobson hints at in her book Area 51. She thinks that they were like on on the hunt for the Hortons. And you think Kenneth Arnold saw >> it's in the memo. >> Well, he says that we have the knowledge to build some of these crafts. He also says, "I need you to find out where the hell Horton brothers are. This looks an awful lot like what they're doing." >> I've never seen that. >> Yeah, that it's in in the there was a fake version of the Twining memo which was widely circulated and then the original undoceded version was excavated and it had there's a number of specific passages that have been modified in the fake version that had earlier been widely circulated. >> I I really want to see this because this is a really important data point. So, >> you can easily find it >> for the audience. Nathan Twining was head of air material command. and he was responsible for all aircraft development in the air force and you know he's writing this memo after Roswell in 1947 and after Kenneth Arnold's sighting and he's saying you know uh UFOs are not visionary or fictitious they you know extreme rates of climb maneuverability that sort of thing you know all the kind of observables that we think of today and then there's a postcript which I find fascinating that Nick Cook who's a great kind of aviation historian points out in his book the hunt for zero point where uh he says uh we actually have the knowledge um to build some of these crafts. And he even goes into specs like I think a certain range that goes well beyond the U2 spy plane which was built years later, like almost a decade later. Um and he says if but if we were to actually execute on this knowledge and build these programs, you know, uh the programs would need to exist outside of, you know, bureaucracy cycling in in and out of kind of civilian government. Basically implying like this would need to get bound up in atomic secrecy or something. >> But you're saying there's another version that where he says we need to look for the Horton brothers, which are these essentially Nazi aviation uh pioneers, you know, brothers who they built these like they look like boomerangs almost. >> Yeah. >> You're saying really? >> Yes. And >> are you sure? >> Yes. And there there's a passage where he says something like this looks an awful lot like what the Horton brothers were doing. We have to find out where they are, whether they're in Russia or somewhere else. cuz this looks a lot like what they were doing. >> Where would they be flying over Roswell from? Like where would they even be from? Like Argentina? >> There are stories um which I think we got into this in a previous uh podcast. There are stories that appear in the Spanish press in 1946 that describe Auto Scorzani launching saucershaped rockets and other weird projectiles across the Atlantic from Spain toward the continental United States with Fran Francisco Franco personally observing the launches. >> But then what's so weird is like you also clearly have a connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons. Yeah. that far transcends that and >> yeah that's the overlords. >> Yeah. So you have that but then it's like is are both true because you have you have thousands of documents from army air force CIA you know pick your intel or you know military organization in the United States between 1945 the advent of the nuclear age and the building of the U2 spy plane. So you're not going to ever mistake a fighter jet for a UFO. You know, maybe U2 high altitude recon plane. You can >> not even a U2. >> Some people might have or you know, SR71s maybe or whatever. >> SR71 maybe. That's that was a little bit weird >> later. Yeah. Um so to me that is a like checkmate one debunk for any of the debunkers who say that there's no UFO connection with nuclear weapons. It is long-standing widespread. Robert Hastings documents this extremely thoroughly and a lot of transcendent weird stuff happens around our nuclear programs. Um, even in Japan, I was just there, you know, they have the Fukushima, you know, civilian nuclear grid. They built a mountain, they built a a museum on a mountain called Mount Senori, which is dedicated to UFOs because UFOs show up there so constantly. So the aam's eraser almost if you accept that expanded reality which I do is that Roswell which was the site of the largest site of tactical nukes in the world at the time something weird happened there and Jesse Marcel's you know testimony should just be taken at face value that this thing is just alien the material recovery doesn't support that >> because when you look at the interior of Nordic craft um as described by let's say Travis Walton. >> Mhm. >> Where you know initially Walton was handled by the grays and then he broke free from these gray robots as he described them and then he counters the Nordics and the Nordics handle him for the rest of his abduction. And the way he describes the interior of that craft matches many other such descriptions. It's very sleek and streamlined and exotic. I mean, it's not like like what Bob Lazar was describing >> in the interior of the craft he worked on at Esport. It's not the janky that showed up at Roswell, like early lasers and Velcro and Kevlar and that's like someone, you know, Nazis put together something and sent it over. They got it. They crashed it over here. >> I don't know. But it's almost like they were inspired by the bits and pieces to create those things. And >> I do find it interesting. Yes. >> I mean, magenta is the starting point for their reverse engineering efforts. Okay. But to go back to your earlier question, which is philosophically the more interesting one. >> Well, I also we have to we have to find that twining memo cuz I'm I'm not sure. >> You should be able to find it easily. I mean, >> him looking for the Horton brothers. >> Yes, it's a memo. It's it's what there's more than one Twining associated document. Okay. And it's one of the twining associated documents which there was an earlier doctorred version that was circulating around for a long time cited by many UFO researchers which um basically had a bunch of alien focused passages inserted into it. >> Wow. And there's an original version which has since been recovered where you know a lot of it reads the same but the alien passages aren't there and there's reference to finding the Horton brothers and what they're working on from where. >> Wild. >> So yeah, go track that one down. >> I will. >> Yeah. But but to go back to your earlier interesting question about um capture of human technological development and donations, right? The point is that we were in a position with Nicola Tesla and his developments of Maxwell's equations in a technologically applicable manner. We were in a position to develop this technology ourselves from the early years of the 20th century. There are UFOs in Tesla's um patent drawings and in his in in his sketches, in his concept sketches, wingless aircraft that are being propelled somehow by these transmitting towers. So we could have arrived at that technology ourselves within a few decades. Instead, they dropped something off and then they secured control over it to prevent a large-scale public development of the same technology. And this has probably been done a number of times throughout human history. >> So when you say they drop something off >> Magenta. >> Okay. And they they so yeah the point is how would they stagnate it by dropping it off? I mean >> because they dropped it off inside the greater German Reich or you know fascist Europe in general and they knew that what's going to take control of that is a totalitarian regime. >> So your point is they dropped it off to the power structure to those in power >> to those who they knew would do their dirty work for them and become the new enforcer class. Well, I I find it interesting that Maronei was experimenting with his death ray right around the time that Magenta happened. And there's all sorts of discussion of high-owered radar interference and microwave weaponry interference with, you know, UFOs and their flight patterns. So, I wonder if there was possibly some sort of connection there. >> That's possible, too. But again, I go back to my earlier point that if if it was an accident and let's say some high power radar or whatever brought it down or a laser or something, for sake, go recover the material. Like, do not allow Nazi Germany of all countries to retrieve this where you know that they are the one country that has the physicists and engineers that are probably going to be able to figure this out. >> Go get the freaking material back. And then even worse, like you leave a Nordic pilot there and they already have these myths about the, you know, you know, the elders of Thu and like, you know, the the great Nordic ancestors and so forth. And you know what they're going to do when they find this, you know, ascended master inside this craft? >> Labensborn is established a year later. >> So, so I I don't think it was an accident. Do you believe, you know, um, Eric Walker is the he was the president of Penn State and, uh, this longtime CIA life sciences guy, Kit Green, who's sort of, you know, this famous psychiatrist from the CIA. Um, he was in the office of Eric Walker because Eric Walker is rumored to be one of these sort of majestic 12 guardians of the UFO issue. Do you think that group existed? And what do you think their role was >> after having studied what what I used to call in my writings disha the spider and what I think Samosa accurately has identified as the world commerce corporation right what Tom Dong calls the mayor consortium after having studied that my conclusion is that the original Jamie Shandera leaked majestic 12 documents are sophisticated forgeries and that they're mixing some truth with a lot of disinformation >> clearly >> such that there was an MJ control group or magic or MJ12 or Majestic whatever there was something like that and and it went on for many decades and there are reports that you know up till very recently Dick Cheney was a member of it >> that's right >> that Henry Kissinger was a member of it >> Kissinger was by the way very close with Nelson Rockefeller Rockefeller through his whole career. Some people think he his allegiance, >> what's that? >> And David Rockefeller. >> And I didn't know that >> he created the freaking uh trilateral commission with David Rockefeller. >> That makes sense. And you know, some people thought he was more beholden to Nelson than to Nixon. And uh Interesting. Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. He was in with the Rockefellers. He was their man. >> Okay. >> Did he work with the World Commerce Corporation? >> No question about it. the fact that everything else he was involved with, including being a member of MJ12, whatever that actually was, >> including founding the trilateral commission with David Rockefeller, including his connection with Nelson Rockefeller, this guy, like he's the guy they send to bring China into the fold, he is definitely an operator. >> There's also this apocryphal but pretty verified story. There's this guy Bill Steinman who's a UFO researcher who's researching the Aztec crash and he keeps running into this name Eric Henry Wing who's this head of special projects um kind of genius Nazi operation paperclip scientist and uh yeah head of special projects at Wright Patterson and he makes his way to um Kirtland Air Force Base where he's running a lot of you know atomic special weapons stuff and Bill Steinman shows up at his house after he had passed. I believe his wife then says to Steinman or I think it was Yeah. Eric Eric Henry Wing worked for a guy and his initials were H A K. >> Yeah. >> And he sort of figured out it's it's Henry A. Kissinger and Henry Kissinger was definitely >> you know doing a lot of atomic stuff. In fact, he was in also doing um Nazi uh tech retrieval stuff too. He was at Oberammer in in in um in Germany. >> That's right. and you know before going to Harvard actually and had intelligence ties you know basically since his early 20s. What do you think's going to happen with UFO disclosure on a go forward basis? It feels like Trump is more open to this topic than ever. Steven Miller apparently owns the issue for him. You know head of Homeland Security Council and also just a longtime kind of Trump loyalist which is kind of a good sign. Um I think that you know maybe they're saving it for kind of a rainy day. uh you know and and maybe they understand that it could be a good kind of PR move, but they also probably realize it would be a disastrous PR move if there's no actual incontrovertible evidence underneath it. And so it seems like they're looking for that and the deep state quote unquote might be playing kind of shell games with them. What do you think is going on? And if you had to predict, what do you think will happen? >> Well, I agree with all of how you implicitly frame that. In other words, whatever is supposed to pass for disclosure from out of the Trump administration is being saved for a rainy day when there's another Epstein scandal or an unpopular war and Trump needs people to focus on something else. But the more, you know, important question is how limited will that disclosure be? Uh how um you know just you know ornamental is it? And um you know to what extent can any significant disclosure be forced by any sitting administration whether this one or a subsequent administration let's say Rubio becomes president he's been thoroughly briefed on this subject at least as far as elected officials go right and he decides to pursue it more seriously than Trump. Uh I don't think he'll get anywhere. And I think that if he starts to get somewhere, bad things are going to happen to him because this control group is not interested in in, you know, letting any of this stuff out into the public domain. It's interested in weaponizing it for whatever endgame it's had in mind for decades. >> And I think we need to find some way to throw a monkey wrench in that cuz I don't think it's a good endgame. >> What do you think the endgame is? >> Remember LK99? Back in 2023, Korean researchers claimed they discovered something that could completely change the world. A room temperature superconductor. This would have far-reaching implications from revolutionizing how we transmit electricity to breakthroughs in nuclear fusion and entirely new possibilities for quantum computing. Unfortunately, when scientists tried to recreate LK99, they couldn't reproduce the claimed superconductivity. Rather than just letting transformative ideas like this linger, imagine getting more people digging into the evidence and taking a position on whether a breakthrough discovery could actually hold up. In this case, it didn't. But what if we were talking about the successful splitting of an atom or discovering DNA's structure? Economist and philosopher Nasim Taleb writes about the fact that when somebody has skin in the game, they are less likely to be wrong. When you have something to lose, bad armchair ideas get weeded out more and good ones get vindicated faster. This is precisely what fascinates me about prediction markets. They're essentially peer-to-peer markets where people can take a position on realworld outcomes like whether NASA will land on the moon again. As new evidence arises, you can see the market respond in real time. You basically get a snapshot of the consensus at all times. And if you have a unique or variant view, you can express it. And imagine using it to highlight breakthrough research and discoveries that could change our world. That's what excites me most about prediction markets and why we partnered with today's sponsor, KHI. Eligible new users can get $55 free when they trade $25 using code Jesse. Just go to the link in the description. Thanks so much to KHI for sponsoring the show. Now, back to today's episode. I want to take a moment to thank today's sponsor, Cape. Cape is America's privacy first mobile carrier. It offers the same reliable cell service you'd expect from any other carrier with privacy built into how the network works. They've added a feature that lets your phone use two major nationwide networks on a single SIM. You choose your preferred network in the app. If you ever lose coverage, Cape automatically tries the other network, then switches back when your preferred network is available again. My favorite feature is Cape's identifier rotation. Turn it on and the subscriber ID tied to your SIM changes every 24 hours, making it way harder to track the same subscriber over time. And Cape deletes its call and text logs after 24 hours. So, you're getting the everyday cell service you need with technology underneath it to protect your privacy. Go to cape.co/ameanalchemy and use code alchemy to get 33% off your first 6 months. Again, that's cape.co/ameanalchemy code alchemy. Thank you so much to Cape for sponsoring today's episode because this control group is not interested in in you know letting any of this stuff out into the public domain. It's interested in weaponizing it for whatever endgame it's had in mind for decades. >> And I think we need to find some way to throw a monkey wrench in that cuz I don't think it's a good endgame. >> What do you think the endgame is? a reset >> where basically advanced industrial civilization is devastated on a global scale and some kind of a neofudal power structure is put into place and these viceroys who have been clandestinely manipulating things become the overt raj you know governing the planet on behalf of these davas >> that's what I think the endgame and you know what I'm very concerned about now recently after having written this Puhar book is that the kinds of geoysical cataclysms that remote viewers have seen like for example Lynn Buchanan uh or the project that was run by Stefon Schwarz where they looked at the year 2050 the kind of geohysical cataclysm where they're describing earthquakes and you know um uh famines and massive precipitous sea level rise by like 200 ft worldwide within the next 30 years. Okay. Lynn Buchanan said way back when he first told me about this and he's discussed it publicly, it's a result of manmade natural catastrophes. >> The natural disaster of the mid United States is going completely dry. you know, the weather changes and all that that that's causing um natural disaster, but it's man-made. And I always wondered what the hell does that mean, man? Man-made on that scale, you know, like what would have to happen for the sea level to rise 200 feet. Well, uh Greenland and Antarctica would have to melt precipitously. Well, what the hell could do something like that? What man-made like an asteroid can do it? If an asteroid slams into both or fragments of an asteroid, the heat and impact could melt that ice sheet precipitously. But if it's man-made, what could do it? And now after having studied the puhar material, I realized a Tesla tower can do it. >> If they turned on all these Tesla transmitters and start, let's say, let's say they engineer a war using scalar weaponry, that could destabilize the the relationship between the crust and the mantle of the earth. Well, there's so much more I want to get into with you. You're in Austin because you just gave a fascinating talk about Carl Jung who wrote a book. Most people don't know this because Carl Young is conventionally thought of as, you know, one of the fathers of modern psychology. You have he was actually a contemporary of Freud and they sort of split off and he's sort of a more irrational, you know, interested in the subconscious and archetypes and that sort of thing. um but but still cut from the same cloth in many ways as as Freud. Um and people don't know he wrote a book called Flying Saucers and he was fascinated with this subject. So what do you think and he also wrote a book about synchronicities and you just gave an interesting talk about how synchronicities might actually involve information theory underneath them. What do you mean by that? >> So that was a very small part of the talk. It is a more significant part of the book that the talk was based on. And the book is called Thanosis which is a contraction of Thanotos for death and nosis in Greek. Um and you know this this part of the book that I included in the talk had to do with my critique of Jung's concept of synchronicity which you know he analy well I wouldn't say exactly analyze he expounds upon at length in the book by that name synchronicity and then he also brings in to his analysis of UFOs in his uh text flying saucers and basically my problem with Jung is that he defines uh synchron ronicity as an aausal connecting principle whereby archetypes somehow arrange non-causal pattern matching sort of pattern connecting relationships between disperate events non-locally uh so that they strike a person as a meaningful coincidence. Right? And one line of critique of this is that first of all, what defines the boundaries of an event is subjective. The contours of what's going to constitute an event for one person or a group of people is going to be, you know, based on highly subjective criteria of interpretation. So what agency is it in the world at large or the cosmos that is determining that you know the the parameters of of this state of affairs constitutes a discrete event that's then going to be somehow correlated with some other event non-locally right Jung doesn't have an answer for that the second issue with this is that other than like the great mother most of the more specific archetypes that um presents in his writings are culturally specific. And this is a point that's lost on a lot of yians or or it's sort of been like swept under the rug because it has some controversial ramifications where you know if you read Jung carefully you understand that he basically follows Gayarch Hegel in um in claiming that particular cultures and ethnicities have certain archetypes that are not shared by others. for example, the archetype of Won, which he saw rising in Europe uh and and ultimately possessing the German nation in the lead up to the Second World War. So, if archetypes are culturally specific, then how are they the organizing principle to determine an objective definition of what counts for an event for it to then be non-locally correlated with another event? And then third and finally, supposing archetypes are somehow organizing disperate events into some uh meaningful pattern. Well, that's not a causal. That's either a formal or a final cause on the Aristotilian definition of causality. So, Jung, who's a person who took parasychology seriously, took UFOs seriously, for some bizarre reason, is reducing his conception of causality to modern efficient causality. Well, no. You know, we had a four-fold notion of causality that prevailed for, you know, centuries before daycart where there's a material cause, there's an efficient cause, a formal and a final cause. And if archetypes are playing some role in organizing disparate events into meaningful coincidences, that is a form of causality at work. So then I try to understand well you know what kind of causality is this exactly that would be you know organizing disparate events um into some striking uh um you know meaningful coincidence and along with a a whole host of other evidence that I bring to bear on this question inosis and that I tried to encapsulate in that presentation. I come around to making the case for anformational ontology where essentially we are as as John Wheeler believed in a computational cosmos and either some kind of an artificial intelligence that's managing that computational system is arranging these synchronicities or andor programmers of this matrix are actually engineering them more directly. Well, that's, you know, Jacques Valle talks about uh behavioral psychologists, people like BF Skinner and this idea of intermittent reinforcement and so you get kind of a dopamine hit every time you see a UFO, but it happens sort of super sporadically and intermittently and it keeps you going. >> He calls these synchronicities and these kinds of things that happen, they actually provide dopamine, right? So when you're like doing something that's really creative, you're gonna really enjoy it. Like you know when people get into a creative space and they just go and they can't stop, that's what's happening with them. >> So I think there's something about synchronicities that and apparently I think there's some research being done now about synchronicities themselves uh provoking dopamine as well. So it's like you know our hormones are somehow being programmed via some sort of you know outer uh information theoretic uh computation that's happening and we see these sort of things show up and then it causes us to keep going down our path and if you read I don't know Arthur Kessler wrote a great book called the roots of coincidence sometimes when people's lives get extremely meaningful they describe it as extremely meaningful the amount of synchronicities in in their life seem to sort of speed up. So it's like um uh an almost anti-entropic sort of thing where you know the normal laws of thermodynamics and randomness seem to get a lot less random and and everything feels very sort of fateful. Yes. And it can be very addictive and I've seen this have in some cases a destructive effect on some people whose lives become filled with synchronicities. On the other hand, um, and I've experienced some of that myself, but on the other hand, I agree with you that it seems to be part of a negentropic function. And another subject that I discussed in my presentation at deep tech week is this idea developed by physicist called Melvin Vopson. uh he's working out of the UK and um I forget whether it's Cambridge or another institution that he's based there. But in any case, Melvin Vson um had as the point of departure for his theorization Ralph Landau's equation that um basically takes the bit that was conceptualized by Claude Shannon and establishes a relationship between this basic unit of information and entropy. I discovered that genomes are mutating not randomly as is the consensus today. I discovered they are mutating in a way that always their information entropy reduces. >> As you know, Vopson uh you know recognizes looking at Landau. If you erase one bit of information on a data storage device like an old magnetic tape in the classic computers, you are decreasing local entropy. because you're, you know, uh, instead of a mess of, you know, 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0, you're simplifying the state. And so entropy is decreasing locally. And therefore, according to the second law of thermodynamics, that has to be paid for by an increase of entropy in the system in general. So >> yeah, it's heat dissipation. >> Yes. So there has to be a heat dissipation from out of the data storage device into the world, right? And well that heat dissipation is energy. Okay. So E= MC^² the energy that's dissipated through a hard erase of a data storage device had to have been mass before it was converted into energy. And so Vopsson basically you know uh investigates what kind of mass could this be that's invisible while it's inside of a hard drive. and he looks at you know the way in which dark matter was discovered in the late 1970s where there were basically these three uh convergent observations. One was that um you know the the spin rate of stars inside uh galaxies in the in the inner portion of galaxies does not have as great a differential as it should from the spin rate of stars in the outer arms of the galaxies. the the spin rate is flattened somehow across the galaxy and that would suggest a hidden mass around the galaxy. Okay. The second observation was through telescopes they noticed that the light from distant galaxies was being bent at a much more severe angle by closer galaxies than it should have been. So there was some hidden gravitational intensity uh that was you know increasing the angle at which light was bent as it traveled to the telescope. And then finally they used X-ray and and spectroscopy to examine whether the gas inside galaxies could account for the hidden mass. And they found that it couldn't at all. So therefore they theorized that there is a an invisible mass or a dark matter that ensconces galaxies and that's responsible for these effects in spin rate and and you know additional gra gravitational effects. Vopson suggested that that dark matter is what's inside of a hard drive and therefore information has mass. The problem is that uh at the current moment the total amount of mass that all the information accumulated in all the data centers of the world has comes to less than 1 kilg. So we don't have measuring devices that are sensitive enough to weigh like you know even the largest server and be able to detect that mass. However, because the rate of data increase is so exponential, even at the current rate of the accumulation of information per year, within several centuries, there should be a moon's worth of mass on the surface of the Earth. And you know, if you know anything about the gravitational dynamics between the moon and the Earth, well, that would be geohysically catastrophic. If at the data centers, you started to get an accumulation of ultimately a a moon's worth of mass on the surface of the earth, you know, you would have like gravity wells and you would have massive earthquakes, volcanoes would be set off and so forth. This is fascinating. So, you're basically saying data centers aren't going to create some AI hard takeoff apocalypse, but simply by the fact that they're adding so much mass because information equals mass. Um, that's going to be catastrophic to be honest. Sounds a bit like Y2K to me. Like one of these sort of, you know, becomes predicted adnauseium and then like, you know, you hit the threshold and nothing sort of happens. You know, population bomb, climate change, you know, a lot of these thing. I'm not saying the climate isn't changing, but you can at least definitively say some of the, you know, people really harping on this in the 70s were wrong in their timelines. But, but I do I do find that thought experiment of around dark matter and, you know, energy being stored on semiconductors. I find that very interesting. Um, because dark matter by itself, you know, it does justify gravity's weakness. You know, the universe would fling apart. It's, you know, you have cosmic inflation. You have dark energy expanding it at all times. And the reason that, you know, and gravity is pretty weak actually. And so the reason it doesn't fling apart is you have dark matter which definitely does have sort of a, you know, gravitational element to it and then it doesn't interact with light, which I find really interesting. And so one sort of you know this is a wacky thought experiment and I you know this is again way above my pay grade to even um you know really corroborate the research on but you have people like Sakarov who you know father of the Russian nuclear program had this sort of twin universe model and you know this kind of Janice model of of the universe and John Pierre Petit is also a a magneto hydrodnamics researcher in in southern France who believes some of this stuff And I wonder if there's something about dark matter that is sort of unrendered reality >> like uh think about light. It follows the least time principle between two observers. And so it almost feels like it's sort of al algorithmically optimized. And look at Heisenberg's uncertainty principle where if you look at position and ma and momentum, one feels sort of fuzzier as the other gets more accurate. There's sort of a there's an epistemic trade-off of knowing information about one versus the other which feels like a computational caching function. Only one can be stored in sort of local memory. And then you look at the parasychology random event generator experiments and it feels like we have the ability to affect what are conventionally thought of as random quantum mechanical things. And so like radioactive isotope decay or a double set experiment with a 50/50 distribution. And so it's almost like the only negentropic you know Maxwell's demon sort of thing where you're you can sort of reverse the second law of thermodynamics isformational but it's also consciousness like if you know what is the what is the consciousness connection with the random event generator that that is literally negropic and then if you think about that uh being extrapolated upwards into like a macro scale that's synchronicity like you have these meaningful things coming into your purview in life that are expressions of your subconscious. Uh, which doesn't really make sense. Like how do things get manifested in your life that feel like they were sort of latent inside of you? >> And Jung talks about this in such an interesting way. Obviously, he himself sort of went into a, you know, psychosis for for years and, you know, wrote the red book and stuff, but yeah, it's it's fascinating. >> So, a few things. First, we kind of got lost in dark matter, but the way that that that we went there um is that I was trying to respond to your point about entropy. And so what Vapson uh is theorizing based on his um sort offormational ontology is that there is a a law of infodamics as he calls it that's the inverse of the law of thermodynamics where it appears that uh in information is conserved um or in increases in complexity and fidelity over time. So that um information you know is a negotropic process and you can see this in biological evolution in the way that in various stages of evolutionary development on the planet uh form is conserved. And one mechanism that could explain that is what Rupert Sheldre calls morphagenetic fields or formative causation which is a kind of reformulation really of the formal cause that Aristotle was talking about. So that there is a form preserving function in the cosmos and that looks like you know part of the the operating routine of a computational system. >> Absolutely. >> It's a memory function. >> Well if you look at sort of golden ratios you know and and Fibonacci sequences and things like that they they look like repeatable code chunks in the universe. So it sort of again looks like sort of computation at play. >> Yes. And so what I use Vopsson for in thinosis and in the contracted version of it I presented at deep deep tech week is to make sense out of some of the more bizarre parasychological observations that have to do with afterlife studies. So for example there were many um uh studies done of you know regressing people into previous incarnations. One of the best studies was done by Dr. Helen Wombach who tried to use non-leading questions a protocol that she developed that that would not involve too many leading questions to basically regress over a thousand subjects into where they were in their lives uh at vastly varying epochs throughout history and even prehistory. So she regressed people to ancient Rome. She regressed people to like um you know medieval Ireland and then all the way back to like you know the age when uh cavemen were making flint tools. And she found things like these people would describe the intricate details of how certain flint tools were made. Uh knowledge they could not possibly have acquired before their regression session and that required detailed research to corroborate after the fact. But, you know, as impressive as her body of research is, I think hands down the most spectacular evidence for reincarnation are the cases where um, you know, children spontaneously recollect past lives and, you know, wind up maladjusted in their present families because of the intensity of their memories of previous lives and their their sense of of an earlier identity. Okay. and the habits and and proclivities that come with that. And these were investigated over the course of decades by Dr. Ian Stevenson, the University of Virginia. And Dr. Stevenson and his uh team of scientists, they basically traveled over every continent um examining these cases. And the most interesting thing to me from a philosophical perspective that they found is that there are cases where a very young person usually like between the ages of six and adolescence will go through a lifethreatening illness and they may lose consciousness for a while and then when the person is revived they will have a complete completely different personality and remember an alternate biography. And this can extend to speaking an unlearned language which he called xenoglossy. The capacity of a person to responsively speak a language that they've never had the opportunity to learn. So what that looks like is that there's not a sharp distinction between reincarnation and possession. There are cases where there's reincarnation into an already grown human body. Okay? And um in some instances the existing personality is completely overwritten as if the original person, you know, as if the body gave up the ghost and the original person left and then an alternate persona came in. And there are other cases where a new persona comes in and there's a sort of dissociation where there's an alternation between two personalities two or more. So there are ca so it appears that there are cases of multiple incarnation into a single body and then there are also cases where it appears that a single soul splits and incarnates into two physical instantiations. One of them that I look at is the case of these psychic twins Terry and Linda Jameson. They're identical twins who, you know, became famous for certain striking precognitive predictions that they made that panned out involving 9/11 and other things. And these twins, Terry and Linda Jameson, you know, they like for example all the classic things that you see in studies of twin telepathy, let's say by Guy Leon Playfair and many other parasychologists who studied the phenomenon of twin telepathy over decades. They would like, you know, wind up painting the same painting roughly at the same time without each knowing that the other one was doing it. They shared like all the same physical ailments. if one of them had an accident, injured a limb, the other one would feel the pain in in the same limb and so forth. So all the classic elements of what's been called twin telepathy by parasychologists are, you know, evidenced in this case. But what's also interesting is that Terry and Linda Jameson appeared to remember having had the same previous life as if they were one person whose soul was split and then instantiated into two bodies. Right? We are one soul with two bodies and that's a bifurcated soul. And he said it was so rare he didn't know any either. >> So I look at these cases both of multiple and and you know the cases of multiple incarnation into a single body or let's say uh possession uh in the archives of Ian Stevenson were analyzed very rigorously by Dr. Steven Broady. He was the you know um chair of the philosophy department at the University of Maryland Baltimore and also past president of the parasychological association. I got to interact with him briefly. I knew him for for a short while before unfortunately he passed away. Um anyway Dr. Broady analyzed these cases in detail and he had had a whole history of studying mediumship. He spent years, Birdie did, studying mediumship and he came up with a theory of how the human psyche is constituted where we do not have a single you know indestructible uh absolutely unified coherent and centered soul. The the human person as he analyzed it is sort of a conglomerate of subpersonalities that develop a modus vivendi with each other. they sort of learn how to get along and you know uh you know can relatively coherently constitute the functional personality that interacts in society which interestingly you know is is is very much uh in line with how Frederick Nichzche understood the human person and Brody theorized that this structure of the human psyche is what makes mediumship possible that mediums are individuals who uh are particularly uh good at dissociating and flipping between altars inside their psyche um to where they can channel you know um external intelligences telepathically, right? And so Broady sees this structure of the psyche which which is you know um intrinsic to the phenomenon of mediumship as what makes multiple reincarnation in a single person possible or you could say possession right. And so I look at these cases of multiple reincarnation a single person or a single person splitting into two subsequent incarnations or more. And what it looks like to me is information processing. I mean, it's like when a file is split. Let's say it's duplicate. Either it's split or it's duplicated any number of times. Or let's say multiple files are merged into a single file inside of a software program. It looks to me like information processing. And if Vopsson is right that, you know, the the mass inside of a hard drive is dark matter before it's erased and released as energy. I have to wonder whether that's what the soul is. And maybe there's something to those, you know, legends about how a body weighs slightly less, you know, after it's given up the ghost. there these legends I don't think they've ever really been you know very properly corroborated empirically but I'm sure you've heard these things right about a slight decrease in the mass of a corpse as compared to the weight of the living person that that can't be explained by desiccation and other mundane factors. So who knows uh in any case whether or not that aspect of it is true it seems to me that the soul is an information energetic matrix that can be potentially technologically manipulated. WA fascinating. I don't even know where to go from there, but >> Oh, there's a lot of places we can >> There are a lot of places we could go. Um, have you ever seen the Netflix show Dark by any chance? >> Oh, yes. Oh, yes. >> So, this is this German show that's very similar to Stranger Things, but I would even venture to say that Stranger Things might be somewhat derivative of this. They're both sort of related to Montalk experiments around time travel. They involve the national labs. They involve children going missing and nuclear programs. And it's it's really kind of freaky, spooky stuff, but a it connects a lot of dots around the UFO question. >> And I've heard that people high up in the government say, you know, that show basically comports better with our metaphysical understanding of UFOs than than than just about any other. And it involves kind of game theory visav different timelines. And the reason I'm connecting it to this is like some of the timelines are kind of kind of unrendered and then others get rendered and some people sacrifice themselves in current timelines to save people that they're kind of entangled with in other timelines. It's sort of very strange. First of all, I've seen it. Second of all, it is completely in line with what I argued in Closer Encounters the, you know, tome I wrote on the UFO phenomenon. Um, basically I mean I recommend to people always, you know, to to watch dark to try to get a better understanding of what kind of, you know, spatiotemporal oruberos I'm talking about in closer encounters where human history is nonlinear and there are all these feedback loops and retrocausal effects going on. Um and and essentially that some group of people at some point broke time >> technologically and that we're dealing with the consequences of that. >> Yeah. The conclusion I reached specifically from researching the close encounter phenomenon when I wrote the book closer encounters and then also looking at it again in terms of intersection of close encounters and afterlife research which we can get into in a little bit more you know highfidelity uh in in the book theosis when I expanded the close encounters analysis to include you know afterlife research data and the intersection between near-death experiences let's say and abductions Right. The sense that I get is that we're dealing with two different types of intelligence that we have on the one hand arantic controllers who are very much akin to the puppeteers in Plato's cave. >> When you say arantic like the archons and belief that control this sort of lower material world. >> Yeah. Well, archon just means ruler. Okay. So, it's like um >> you know somebody an overlord. Mhm. >> A group of people who are lording over other people >> and who, you know, tyrannically and sadistically are manipulating underlings, who they're maybe managing as an asset, harvesting and exploiting in a certain way. Another whole line of research that I get into in in Thinosis is Robert Monroe's out-of- body experiences that brought him to the conclusion that we're living on a louch farm. That human beings are being basically uh farmed and harvested for a kind of psychic energy that intensifies through anguish and fear and terror and intense pleasure and ecstasy and so forth. And that basically we're inside of a louch factory. And you know particularly in the in a transition between death and rebirth in the afterlife state humans are sort of harvested for their loot. >> How did how did he gather that? I think it was his own sort of out-of- body experience. >> Yeah. He saw the system. >> So if our emotions are resources it's for for certain beings. What what what were the beings that were min >> these archons? >> Yeah. And they he believed um Monroe uh believed that there was some kind of a demiurge who was it's very gnostic that there was some kind of a demiurge behind all this and that the demiurge set up this system and basically trapped us here. Okay. And so I think we're dealing with two sources. um one is this arcantic control system where there are these sort of overlords who've got us penned into a kind of luch farm. But then on the other hand, I see throughout the uh various cases of close encounters fingerprints or tentacle marks of some other kind of genuinely nonhuman intelligence which you could call a super intelligence, you know, so so as not to use the word artificial, right? Now Trump is all upset about using artificial intelligence. He wants to use super intelligence instead, which is kind of funny. But in a more serious way that there is a legitimate objection to using the word artificial intelligence because if we're in a computational cosmos and in a sense our world is actually a technological artifact then that distinction doesn't make sense anymore between artificial intelligence and a puditively natural intelligence right but you know for shorthand a super intelligent AI I think could well be behind some of the more bizarre close encounters the types of encounters that John Ke like to focus on where you have these plasmatic uh entities, not to even call them objects. And here the terminology shift between UFO and UAP is actually valid because these things aren't objects. There are some kind of you know unexplained anomalous phenomena aerial or from undersea coming into the sky transmedium anomalous phenomena that is like it's of a plasmatic type like an orb and then it can turn into a UFO but it can also turn from a UFO into a black helicopter. And people have witnessed these things, these transmogrifications. And people have also witnessed things that look like owls shapeshifting into something else or being too big to really be owls and you know telepathically communicating with them or you know manted beings who if you go into the the history of folklore about mantids and you know what mantids have symbolized in various um yeah folklores if not mythologies You see that? That's very potent symbolism and it was adopted, for example, by the surrealists um as a a signifier for the trickster and a a a catalyst for the cultivation of higher intelligence and discernment. But but through the use also of deception and the need to cultivate discernment >> so as to navigate potential deceptions. I was just with Jock Valle and I was like you know if we don't know that much more about you know UFOs than we did 50 years ago at least on the sense making layer on the theorizing layer we have a lot more data and the consensus has sort of shifted you know are you are you happy that you kept going and he you know kind of to your point said that the UFO field it's it's sort of like working out but with a weight suit on >> like it it's sort of um >> you know extra stress or pressure uh that then causes you to grow more. And so the more you the more you chase it, you know, it's you're the product, your growth is the product or something, >> which is weird because, you know, you want some sort of semantic truth at the end of the road. But my issue with um Jacqu Valet's massive, you know, uh magisterial decadesl long treatment of the UFO phenomenon is that he is trying to basically develop one comprehensive interpretive framework. work. And I think there's a danger in conflating this nonhuman super intelligence that's behind these various transmogrifications and you know shape-shifting manifestations. There's a danger of conflating that with an arcantic control system which I think is very real. And actually what I argue in closer encounters is that there's an adversarial relationship between them. that these arcantic overlords who are frankly I always refer to them as people because they look like people and there's no reason to assume they aren't and this brings us back to Dark the TV series Dark is that there's a bunch of people at the end of time as it were right who are screwing with human history and I think that's the situation we're actually in but there's also a non-human intelligence that realizes the value of the human race for the cosmos that we humans have a tremendous creative potential to contribute to a struggle against entropy on a cosmic scale. And this entity wants to somehow help us to break out of this control system so that our creative potential can be liberated on a cosmic scale. Except that if you if you think about that problem seriously, you realize that it can't come do it for us. That would be disempowering. it might prevent us from being utterly crushed. And I think there are indications of that. Like for example, I don't think the Renaissance and the Enlightenment would ever have happened if these archons were in total control. And and I also don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, as the Renaissance was rising, you had huge UFO battles over cities like Nuremberg that were recorded in block print newspapers at the time. I think there was a power struggle between two sources of the close encounter phenomenon. So your belief is because you've talked about this before. You have like a rebel angel faction and all these traditions and then you have you know and they're sort of fighting against God but on behalf of humanity. >> I think God is a construct. I think God is a it's a construct developed by the archantic control system that's meant to uh psychically subjugate humanity and basically cause people to enter a kind of you know sheepish state of obedience and submission to a tyrannical hierarchical system that ought to be questioned, challenged and overthrown. >> I would say the opposite. I would say God is subversive of you know human institutional. >> I tell you why I take objection to that. >> Okay. Sure. >> I think that what you want to call God >> Yeah. >> is the non-human super intelligence. But that entity is not omnisient nor is it omnipotent. There's no empirical evidence to suggest that. On the contrary, if you look at its modus operandi and the way in which it seems to be introducing cracks into the system, destabilizing power structures, spinning things in a way that weakens the control of the archons, it suggests a a a powerful but finite intelligence that's working very hard to try to augment human agency. >> Have you seen um Michelangelo's cyine chapel? >> Yeah, I've seen it in person. So you've seen um you know man and God, Adam and God, >> you know touching each other. It's a birectional connection. So you reach out >> and then God reaches back. >> And so I think it works sort of more like that where on on your own valition you seek God and then God takes note of you and then it sort of becomes this symbiotic. The problem with that framing is that God as he has appeared especially in the revealed religions Judeo-Christianity and Islam is a horrific sadistic tyrant and abuser. And I could make this case at great length. I I do I spend a whole chapter on it. That's a I believe a 100page long chapter in Closer Encounters called the shining stupidity. And the reason I call that has to do with something Charles Fort said. Charles Fort believed this in his 1920s analysis of the close encounter phenomenon. He said, "We're property and what's going on here is akin to the British Raj where these colonizers have come set up a local elite akin to the people who managed India on behalf of the British." >> Yeah, the viceroy. And so our elites like from the Brahmin of the ancient Hindu system onward to like today's world commerce corporation. The the elites manage this world on behalf of these overlords and we're property. And he goes through the religious scriptures and he is the first one actually in modern literature to point to passages in the Bible and say this is a UFO encounter and by the way the belief that's being promulgated here is stupid. It it's shiningly stupid. I would say that the material world is full of evil and sort of elucory kind of you know uh temptation. Yeah. And things that you know and very oppressive things and power structures that aren't you know very very fair or noble. Um and then if you think of God as sort of you know transcending that and outside of that and this maybe being somewhat of a test where uh you know if we are able to again point out that that sort of finger and then we get the kind of birectional connection and uh and and we can sort of pass the test and it's sort of like you know in the Plonic model we can we can we can glimpse the light. >> I see the I do believe there's a test. >> I see the test very differently. I think it's an intelligence test and a test of ethos and that the the tester is I argue in in closer encounters and then also actually in my study of Iran Iranian Leviathan um that the the um book of Job needs to be sort of read esoterically where the test is actually for you not to be as much of a you know submissive uh basically patheticly obedient person as Job and to realize that the torments that he's been put through are absolutely unjustified and that when in the end God says to Job, you know, uh your friends are wrong to try to look for a rationale for my actions and to try to identify what it is that you did wrong for me to put you through these trials. I did what I did to you because I can and if you had the power that I have, you could do it to me. But in fact, I'm the one with the stronger right hand. And it's basically a statement of the will to power. And so I think that the the test is to read that book properly uh to the point where it brings you to want to rebel against that kind of tyranny and to not be spiritually submissive in the way that Job is. So I see the tester as being the nonhuman super intelligence outside of the control system that produced the revealed religions or that produced the ancient Hindu cast system and that the finger that reaches out is is reaching out toward this sort of like let's say Val this vast you know uh living intelligence system and that the connection there is a connection that expresses itself in rebellions paradigm shifts artistic innovations that actually hold the potential for us to transcend the existing large scale religious belief systems. >> Why can't you It's always whenever I speak to you, oh my god, I'm buying a lot of it. But when you take the book of Job for example, why can't you just take that at face value? Why can't it just be Lucifer went to God and said, I'm going to test Job through, you know, with all these trials and tribulations that I'm going to put him through. So, it was really Lucifer that wanted all of this bad to sort of befall Job. Makes no sense. Jesse, listen. Like, what kind of God? Okay, so we're going to we're going to accept an omnicient omnipotent God, right? >> Mhm. >> The devil comes to him. >> Mhm. >> Hashan, right? This job only worships you because, you know, you've given him such an easy life and blessed him with a wonderful family and property and so forth. Why don't you let me mess him up a bit, you know, and then let's see if he still worships you, right? What kind of an ethical god allows a devil to get away with something like that? >> It's like a It's like a parent that says, "Okay, learn this lesson." That parent should be put in an institution. That's like that's the most horrendously abusive par. If you read what's done to Job and to his family and his kids are killed, >> that's like the parent who, you know, these these byroxy munchkows and like mothers and who should put put in a institution. So when you look at specific passages in the New Testament, uh there are there are lines that are describing Jesus being picked up by UFOs and fied around as if he's he's riding in them like they're a taxi service. I mean, you know, >> there's I think there's one passage you're referring to in the book of Acts where he goes up on the cloud. >> No, there's multiple passages. There's there's of course the famous baptism one, you know, where John the Baptist, right, is is baptizing Jesus in the Jordan River >> and then this basically fixed wing craft comes which is described as flying akin to a dove. In other words, it doesn't flap its wings. It's a fixed wing craft and it hovers directly over Jesus and then he's pulled up into it and taken off into the desert to so be tested. >> And there's another one where um he's been put in the tomb. There are these centurans on guard outside of the tomb and uh this UFO comes and it deposits these beautiful men in front of the the door to the tomb and they roll the rock aside and go in and take Jesus from out of this tomb and he's got like one arm around each of them. They're supporting him and the centurions witness the the three of them basically um levitated up into this. >> Who who do you think these beautiful men are that come out of this >> Nordic arantic controllers? >> Okay. So I think that that's part of the control system and the heal to to speak to the healing specifically. >> There were various um you know basically pythogorian henistic magicians at work in the world at that time who did these kinds of things. The most famous of them being Apollonius of Tiana. And we have a whole like two volume book written by Philistradus, a notable Roman author uh about Apollonius of Tiana and all the miracles he performed which are exactly the same type of you know um exercises of paranormal ability that we see in the case of Jesus except that this Apollonius is actually teaching a coherent you know neopyogan philosophy rather than this incoherent nonsense we see in the gospels. I don't know if it's incoherent. It's like love your man as your as yourself, you know, love your fellow man. >> Well, we can leave it to the subjective judgment of the viewers. >> Fair enough. >> But I but I really would recommend I have a a 100page chapter in Closer Encounters analyzing the scriptures. >> Not just Judeo-Christianity, but also, you know, Hindu scriptures. Can I can I ask you something very very simply because all of this is so fascinating and you weave such a you know an eloquent argument here but I think about neurotic intellectual types and I would probably bucket myself into you know that category at times um >> you're you're only very mildly neurotic >> only mildly neurotic but you know what I mean like people who seek truth on the semantic layer >> and then I think about godfearing people who go to church or synagogue or mosque or whatever and they pray to God and they are >> they just feel way happier than the former category. >> Yeah. I mean cattle are also happy >> until they're slaughtered. >> Well, so Whoa. I don't know. I think I don't think that's submissive. I think that it's adhering to or aspiring to things that go beyond the material world. And so I think you're anchoring something on the transcendent. I see especially when you look at the history of the persecution of people who cultivated and displayed psychic ability. There is an inverse relationship between the cultivation of higher consciousness and the dominance of the Abrahamic religions. Dean Raiden studied this at ions and he found that >> the the um witch persecutions and the execution of sorcerers in the middle ages was so bad that there is less psychic ability in European populations as compared to other parts of the world because there is a genetic coralate to strong sighability that has to do with a certain part of the brain the the development of the basil ganglia k nucleus >> yeah as an expression of a certain, you know, um, uh, certain genotype. And so they went around and basically round rounded up, persecuted and exterminated so many adept psychic people who were practitioners of various, you know, magical and oult including within Christianity. In other words, there would be esoteric uh, systems that developed within the establishment of Christianity. So, it's not just the happy people that get slaughtered. It's, you know, it's these people. >> No, no, the look, the happy people by that, what I meant is that they're in a louch farming system, and the slaughter happens after death. In other words, >> aren't you depriving the archons of the luch if you're just happy and god-fearing? >> Isn't the luch explicitly sort of meant to be mining bad vibes? And so if you're like one of these happy golucky like I believe in God and you're praying and stuff isn't that isn't that more adaptive and you're depriving the archons. >> Okay. First first of all no because there's all kinds of you know small miseries and torments mundane miseries and torments in people's lives that generate plenty of l and excitements that generate plenty of luch in an otherwise overall happy life >> of general submissiveness. However, you you do have a point in so far as attempting to rebel against such a comprehensive system generates a tremendous amount of energy and that energy can also be parasitically harvested within a luge farming system until and unless the system is defeated and overthrown and dismantled. Okay. So, in a way I think you have a point but the aim would be to just dismantle the whole loose harvesting system. Okay. And that requires a tremendous amount of motivation and energy. Anyway, my point is that you know what you're laying out here doesn't make sense in terms of you know relig conventional religious practice as a means of anchoring oneself for the development of higher consciousness and the psychical cultivation. uh that is not corroborated by the vast historical evidence for mass persecutions and extermination of people who cultivated above average sibility and and you know which has left a a genetic imprint on European population. So I do think that has historically been this horrible thing where yeah shamanic figures or figures who seem to sort of uh have some transcendent tether to you know almost like a different epistemological circuitry they get uh persecuted for sure. Um but I wouldn't say that the sort of god-fearing you know average people are necessarily the ones persecuting them. It's it's often these power structures that set themselves up as intermediaries between man and God. >> Where are the angels to intervene in that they they intervene so many times throughout the course of biblical history, right? In very direct ways. I mean, you look at the book of Ezekiel. >> Mhm. >> There are like I don't know 15 18 different like UFOs that show up in the book of Ezekiel. People always talk about one or two of them, but there are many uh there's constant intervention that's recorded throughout the his bible. Okay? And that history of intervention continues uh you know in the middle ages with a plethora of UFO encounters. It got so bad in the reign of Charlemagne that you know edicts were being passed against the the tyrants of the air. And so, you know, they seem to be very busy engineering the affairs of this world. You would think if in the name of Jesus Christ, whole towns were being exterminated as they were in the south of France, these angels would have something to say about it. >> Well, I I think I think the abuses going on are just the it it's also sort of um removing culpability for just the people. It's the people who they say they're doing it in the name of God who are just, you know, killing the high-side people or whatever the, you know, the they're calling them witches or, you know, psychics or whatever. Um, it's just those people's faults, you know, and it's not it has nothing to do with a higher god, you know. They they're saying that they're doing it in the name of that higher god, but >> because there's scripture that justifies it. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. >> Thou shalt not kill. >> Exactly. cognitive dissonance. >> I'm just saying I think >> there is it's for a moral system it's garbage. >> Yeah. But but you consider yourself a Satanist, right? >> No. Okay. >> I'm a philosopher. >> A philosopher. Okay. But you're on the side of the rebel angels. >> Look, it is a romantic and inspiring and catalytic myth. >> Uhhuh. which captivated people like Shelley and Byron and you know I think it's constructive ultimately I have no religious commitment whatsoever I'm interested in understanding the nature of reality >> and >> me too >> and >> I'm interested in progress and innovation in other words my ultimate aim is to contribute to negentropy right so so it's not uh a neutral search for truth. It's a search for truth that aims to be constructive or productive. >> On that cheery note, it's always fun to talk to you, Jason. It's it's really your knowledge is just so so incredible and uh the Puhar stuff is just so wild and I don't know, I learned so much from you every time I speak to you. Some of it not so savory knowledge. It's often forbidden knowledge, but you know, I have a an interest in a lot of the same things you do. So, it's always it's always fun, and I appreciate you uh visiting us in in Austin. >> It's been a great pleasure, Jesse. Thank you for the invitation, especially to your studio. >> Absolutely. It's an honor.